PRA CCA Help

[gwkerr]

Hello

I have an ongoing dispute with PRA Group previously known as Aktiv Kapital. They purchased a MBNA Credit Card debt which I took out in 2006 which defaulted in 2012 with a balance of around £4k. I have never made a payment to them as they were unable to the provide Credit Card Agreement. They went away and returned again a few months ago and I wrote another letter requesting CCA with the £1 fee. I contacted MBNA directly regarding the missing default notice and they have been unable to provide me with a copy. I wrote a letter to PRA asking for a copy of assignment, default notice and credit card agreement. After 2 months they have provided they have sent a copy of an online application form with a tick box from 2006, 8 pages of terms and conditions and cancellation details, statements and default notice. The default notice is a fake as MBNA were unable to provide a copy so I explained this in a letter to them. Since this letter they have sent me a few 50% settlement offer vouchers which I have ignored.

I have now received a letter from their Litigation and Investigation department asking me to contact them as they are possibly looking at taking legal action. Is this debt unenforceable with no signatures to a CCA as its from 2006? :tinysmile_hmm_t2:

[FlamingParrot]

Re: PRA CCA Help

Hello

I have an ongoing dispute with PRA Group previously known as Aktiv Kapital. They purchased a MBNA Credit Card debt which I took out in 2006 which defaulted in 2012 with a balance of around £4k. I have never made a payment to them as they were unable to the provide Credit Card Agreement. They went away and returned again a few months ago and I wrote another letter requesting CCA with the £1 fee. I contacted MBNA directly regarding the missing default notice and they have been unable to provide me with a copy. I wrote a letter to PRA asking for a copy of assignment, default notice and credit card agreement. After 2 months they have provided they have sent a copy of an online application form with a tick box from 2006, 8 pages of terms and conditions and cancellation details, statements and default notice. The default notice is a fake as MBNA were unable to provide a copy so I explained this in a letter to them. Since this letter they have sent me a few 50% settlement offer vouchers which I have ignored.

I have now received a letter from their Litigation and Investigation department asking me to contact them as they are possibly looking at taking legal action. Is this debt unenforceable with no signatures to a CCA as its from 2006? :tinysmile_hmm_t2:

Sadly for online applications made from 2005 onwards, a tick box fulfils the role of a signature and there was no longer a requirement to send you a hard copy of the agreement for you to sign and return if you applied online. You'd have been required to tick the box accepting the terms presented to you to be able to submit your application and that would have been the equivalent of signing the agreement in wet ink.

[nemesis45]

Re: PRA CCA Help

Hello

I have an ongoing dispute with PRA Group previously known as Aktiv Kapital. They purchased a MBNA Credit Card debt which I took out in 2006 which defaulted in 2012 with a balance of around £4k. I have never made a payment to them as they were unable to the provide Credit Card Agreement. They went away and returned again a few months ago and I wrote another letter requesting CCA with the £1 fee. I contacted MBNA directly regarding the missing default notice and they have been unable to provide me with a copy. I wrote a letter to PRA asking for a copy of assignment, default notice and credit card agreement. After 2 months they have provided they have sent a copy of an online application form with a tick box from 2006, 8 pages of terms and conditions and cancellation details, statements and default notice. The default notice is a fake as MBNA were unable to provide a copy so I explained this in a letter to them. Since this letter they have sent me a few 50% settlement offer vouchers which I have ignored.

I have now received a letter from their Litigation and Investigation department asking me to contact them as they are possibly looking at taking legal action. Is this debt unenforceable with no signatures to a CCA as its from 2006? :tinysmile_hmm_t2:

1. Yes it is enforceable.
2. DN's are not routinely archived as hard copy, there is no obligation to do so, a creditor may provide a " reconstituted" copy i.e. what you would have received. Creditors have only to note on a customers record that a DN was sent on a specific date.
3. The account was only defaulted in 2012 and is therefore well within time scales for legal action.
4. The absence of the CCA only means that the debt is/was unenforceable via the courts, it still exists and is open to all other measures of debt collection.

nem

[Adrasteia]

Re: PRA CCA Help

Can anyone but a court say it is enforceable especially without seeing the actual agreement ?
It is certainly likely that the system would not have let you sign unless you had agreed to all the terms and conditions.

When you look at the default notice is it set out in the right way with the right time to remedy it and the right amount , I think some default notices have not been good because the amount requested to fix the breach isn't the amount actually needed

[Kafka]

Re: PRA CCA Help

Ultimately it would be the court on the day that would decide whether an agreement is enforceable or not. Having said that there are legal guidelines on this and lots of precedents, so if it looks unenforceable then you can frame any defence by highlighting the salient points.
Conversely, if it looks enforceable then you might be better to make an arrangement rather than defending.

[nemesis45]

Re: PRA CCA Help

Can anyone but a court say it is enforceable especially without seeing the actual agreement ?
It is certainly likely that the system would not have let you sign unless you had agreed to all the terms and conditions.

When you look at the default notice is it set out in the right way with the right time to remedy it and the right amount , I think some default notices have not been good because the amount requested to fix the breach isn't the amount actually needed

The question asked was is this enforceable with out signature i.e. could it be enforced answer is "yes".

[Adrasteia]

Re: PRA CCA Help

The question asked was is this enforceable with out signature i.e. could it be enforced answer is "yes".

Nemesis , I realise that was the question but as people skim read these threads very often I was just trying to point out that the answer could be misinterpretted if taken out of context . It also depends on what you mean by a signature, do you mean a digital one or do you mean what those lovely freemen call , a wet ink signature . Without any form of signature, digital or otherwise they may have an uphill struggle to enforce

[nemesis45]

Re: PRA CCA Help

Nemesis , I realise that was the question but as people skim read these threads very often I was just trying to point out that the answer could be misinterpretted if taken out of context . It also depends on what you mean by a signature, do you mean a digital one or do you mean what those lovely freemen call , a wet ink signature . Without any form of signature, digital or otherwise they may have an uphill struggle to enforce

No a digital/ written/ tick box/ even a rubber stamp is acceptable
Misinterpreted as you did skimming across the post as you did?:tinysmile_twink_t2:

[FlamingParrot]

Re: PRA CCA Help

Ultimately it would be the court on the day that would decide whether an agreement is enforceable or not. Having said that there are legal guidelines on this and lots of precedents,

Do you know any case law where a post 2005 digital agreement was found to be unenforceable in court? Would be great if there was something! ray:

so if it looks unenforceable then you can frame any defence by highlighting the salient points.
Conversely, if it looks enforceable then you might be better to make an arrangement rather than defending.

This is a tricky one when you're half way through, if you make an offer you lose those three years so may be best to leave that as a last resort after a claim has been issued. :ohwell::

[Kafka]

Re: PRA CCA Help

As I recall (I'm a bit rusty as I've been hibernating) the electronic signature is generally accepted as agreement with the terms, so it's difficult to challenge on those grounds.
This is pre 2007, so regardless of the signature there is the issue of the prescribed terms.

[FlamingParrot]

Re: PRA CCA Help

As I recall (I'm a bit rusty as I've been hibernating) the electronic signature is generally accepted as agreement with the terms, so it's difficult to challenge on those grounds.
This is pre 2007, so regardless of the signature there is the issue of the prescribed terms.

Those were my thoughts precisely. :mmph: The thing is, because all you have is whatever they send you claiming to have been your original terms, how can you challenge that they weren't the terms from inception? Not unless you'd printed them off at the time you ticked the box, but how many people would have done that? :ohwell:

There may be some way to establish those were not the terms from inception in cases where things like charges are different, but that may no be so often the case with post-2005 accounts. :mmph:

[Kafka]

Re: PRA CCA Help

F161ADuty to supply copy of executed consumer credit agreement
(1)Where a regulated consumer credit agreement, other than an excluded agreement, has been made, the creditor must give a copy of the executed agreement, and any other document referred to in it, to the debtor.
(2)Subsection (1) does not apply if—
(a)a copy of the unexecuted agreement (and of any other document referred to in it) has already been given to the debtor, and
(b)the unexecuted agreement is in identical terms to the executed agreement.
(3)In a case referred to in subsection (2), the creditor must inform the debtor in writing—
(a)that the agreement has been executed,
(b)that the executed agreement is in identical terms to the unexecuted agreement a copy of which has already been given to the debtor, and
(c)that the debtor has the right to receive a copy of the executed agreement if the debtor makes a request for it at any time before the end of the period referred to in section 66A(2).
(4)Where a request is made under subsection (3)(c) the creditor must give a copy of the executed agreement to the debtor without delay.
(5)If the requirements of this section are not observed, the agreement is not properly executed.

- - - Updated - - -

The way I read this is that even if you apply online, they are required to send you hard copy of the agreement including all of the relevant prescribed terms. It's not enough to send you a generic statement of terms - it needs to be an agreement that also includes your details, even if you didn't have to physically sign a copy.
Application forms almost never contain the prescribed terms in the correct manner so I would challenge for a bespoke agreement that included personal details alongside the prescribed terms.

[gwkerr]

Re: PRA CCA Help

Don't laugh guys but whilst I was away my wife responded to PRA's 50% discount voucher😡. Using Without Prejudice template and offered F&F settlement for 75% of balance. Signed with PP next to her signature. Does the SB clock reset again????

[Kati]

Re: PRA CCA Help

I think that for the SB clock to be reset the debt has to be acknowledged by you (or someone else, who has been given your permission to do so). That being said ... it shouldn't reset the clock (you had no knowledge of your wife's intentions and she signed it in her own name not yours).

Hopefully someone will be able to tell you for certain later on today :tinysmile_hmm_t2:

K xx

[nemesis45]

Re: PRA CCA Help

I suggest that you personally write back withdrawing the content of that letter.
Stating that whatever was said was not authorised by you and you do Not acknowledge any debt to PRA.

nem