Prevented From Trading by MOJ Because They Did Not Understand What I Do

[wales01man]

Re: Prevented From Trading by MOJ Because They Did Not Understand What I Do

Having read this thread I have to wonder why with hundreds of thousands of pounds at stake Re.lost earnings that you have not consulted a Solicitor to pursue this?
Opinions on here are very good but a specialist Legal mind could I hope give the answers that you may or may not want,

[Amethyst]

Re: Prevented From Trading by MOJ Because They Did Not Understand What I Do

I'm only going off the sites of yours I have been able to view and the email discussion you sent me, hence why I'm asking if you could spell out how it works, you mention affiliate networks a lot, but then also say your sites were branded, so it isn't clear.


Debt Camel, yes I get your point on that but it is awfully frustrating.

[entseo]

Re: Prevented From Trading by MOJ Because They Did Not Understand What I Do

Having read this thread I have to wonder why with hundreds of thousands of pounds at stake Re.lost earnings that you have not consulted a Solicitor to pursue this?
Opinions on here are very good but a specialist Legal mind could I hope give the answers that you may or may not want,

wales01man, yes, I was very tempted to take legal advice from the outset. But I am a one-man business and I would be up against a government department with access to top (and very expensive) QCs. What if I were to lose? In spite of the absurdity of losing - given all the facts as they have presented themselves - there was still the possibility that I would lose, in which case I would have to pay the QC's fees. This would bankrupt me. It would also mean that I wouldn't be able to pay for the care that I am currently giving to my mother who has Alzheimer's.

The situation with the MOJ up to that point had proven grotesquely absurd. There was nothing to prevent things getting worse. If you've ever been up against a government department you will know that if they insist that water isn't wet then that's it: water isn't wet and there's nothing you can do about it.

[wales01man]

Re: Prevented From Trading by MOJ Because They Did Not Understand What I Do

If you are going to take on the MOJ you will need a very good and no doubt expensive legal time.
The legal system is not there for the masses its an exclusive club based on priveledge and money.
heres hoping you have a case winning may prove harder
Good Luck

[entseo]

Re: Prevented From Trading by MOJ Because They Did Not Understand What I Do

I'm only going off the sites of yours I have been able to view and the email discussion you sent me, hence why I'm asking if you could spell out how it works, you mention affiliate networks a lot, but then also say your sites were branded, so it isn't clear.

Amethyst, you wriye "You can't take peoples information and them not know what you are doing with the information." I'm not sure how I have ever given that impression. That is certainly not what I do - I can't think of how that could be of any use.

Affiliate networks are intermediaries between the affiliates and the merchant clients. The clients go to the networks because they know that they have a large force of SEOs and other types of marketing bods (some are experts at the pay-per-click programs, some have large databases of existing customers in the same sector, etc.). The affiliate network managers then contact their affiliates and introduce the new client and their product or service to see if it would be a good match for the affiliates' own line of specialisation. The network takes a percentage of the revenue as a result.

It all works very well and is a win-win situation for everyone involved. Having worked this way for years I find it difficult to explain it other than in the way I have. It is very simple and transparent and it works really well.

[Amethyst]

Re: Prevented From Trading by MOJ Because They Did Not Understand What I Do

Okay so you have a website, it has a form on for consumers to complete, what happens, literally, with that information. ie. what do you do with it?

I really do mean the basics..... does a company contact you and ask you to set up a website for them and take leads directly from it themselves, or do you set up a website, collect consumers information and sell it to the companies ?


The form on the site I looked at on wayback archve (think I posted a screenshot earlier) didn't make it clear where the information went.


ahh yes

[entseo]

Re: Prevented From Trading by MOJ Because They Did Not Understand What I Do

OK. I suppose the first thing to make clear is that I wouldn't ever build a website speculatively. By that I mean I wouldn't start collecting data if I didn't already have a client for that data, and that client was compliant with any legislation in operation at that time (most sectors aren't regulated, of course, but for those that are then the client would have to be registered with the regulation body, whoever it was).

The client would not approach affiliates directly. The affiliates would get an email from one of the networks to say that a new program had started and would this be a good fit for yor type of work?

If yes, the affiliate would sign up for the program and download any information, graphics, banner ads, etc., and would also make note of any special requirements such as examples of APR (for debt management) or disclaimers, etc.

The site would then get built. Links would be put on the site, or alternatively a web form. If the website visitor clicks on the link they would go directly to the merchant site. If the visitor filled out a web form the data would go directly to the merchant's data collection system and they would take it from there. Sometimes the affiliate would get an email after such an application was made, and sometimes not. In any event the affiliate would be able to his/her account on the affiliate network site and be able to see all events in as near to real-time as was technically possible (I've always assumed a maximum of 24 hours).

I thought you'd used the Wayback machine (a handy little site). If you scroll down to the foot of the page you would see the details of the merchant client together with details of their registration, etc., so it would be made clear where the data was going. It is standard practice to ALWAYS have these details on the page to show who the end client was. In some cases a program might stop (the client has used up their ad budget, for example, or had ceased that line of business, etc.) but there would generally be another program on exactly the same lines. Sometimes this would be on the same network, sometimes a different network. If this were the case (the client had changed) then the web form would change and the details of the new client would be changed as well. In cases where there is no such detail of the client then this would indicate that the affiliate program was not running and/or that no new client had been found.

[Amethyst]

Re: Prevented From Trading by MOJ Because They Did Not Understand What I Do

Just looking at some of the terms of a CMC affiliate agreement

(b) maintain and update for the duration of your being registered as an Affiliate Marketing Agent classification as an Exempt Introducer in accordance with the Ministry of Justice Regulations as set out in the Compensation Act 2006

So you think you are an exempt introducer, and the MOJ think otherwise;

I believe you are arguing you are acting as an agent and thus exempt

5.2 Introducers acting as agents for an authorised business
Where introducers are acting as agents of an authorised claims management business, their activities
are covered by the principal business’s authorisation. For example, where a claims management
business employs agents to market on their behalf, then the agents will not require authorisation.
Where an authorised business uses agents, they will be responsible for the activities (including
breaches of the Conduct Rules) of the agent.

whereas the MOJ believe you are acting as a referrer

The requirements are set out in detail in the Compensation (Exemptions) Order 2007 but, in
practice, apply as follows –
A business may refer claims and will not require authorisation where:
• they provide no other regulated claims management activity, including advertising or
seeking out persons who may have a cause for a claim, or advising on a potential claim;
• the way they come across the case for referral is incidental to their main business i.e.
the claim must arise as a result or consequence of the business being carried out by the
introducer – not a separate feature of the business;
• the referral is made to an authorised business or legal practitioner; and
• the business is paid for no more than 25 referrals per calendar quarter.
All of these tests must be met for the business to be deemed exempt. Examples where a
business may fail to satisfy the ‘exempt introducer’ criteria include:
• A person advertises for personal injury business and passes under 25 cases a quarter on to
solicitors. (The business is advertising and so referring cases is not the only service provided).
• A person refers 50 cases a quarter to solicitors but no more than 25 to any one practice.
(The limit is on the total number of referrals not the number passed to any one solicitor or
authorised claims management business).
• A person refers very few personal injury claims but this is all the business does. (Claims
management activities form the main part of the business and referrals are not acquired
incidentally to other services provided).

[entseo]

Re: Prevented From Trading by MOJ Because They Did Not Understand What I Do

Sorry for the 3-day intermission. I was away looking after my mum.

Anyway, the MOJ officer insisted that I was a CMC. I wasn't just a referrer or an agent; I have a phone conversation where he insists I was a CMC yet it was obvious I was not.

[righty]

Re: Prevented From Trading by MOJ Because They Did Not Understand What I Do

By that I mean I wouldn't start collecting data if I didn't already have a client for that data, and that client was compliant with any legislation in operation at that time (most sectors aren't regulated, of course, but for those that are then the client would have to be registered with the regulation body, whoever it was).
This above statement nails it for me
No matter what you state YOU are collecting personal data & whilst YOU may ensure your clients comply with the regulation it is irrelevant as far as the MOJ are concerned. YOU are not expected to act like a regulator AND its YOU who should be regulated.....Sorry

[righty]

Re: Prevented From Trading by MOJ Because They Did Not Understand What I Do

Also not suggesting you do anything other than you claim BUT the MOJ only have your word that you do nothing with that personal data........ eg as far as they are concerned you could be developing a data base to sell onto DCA's

[entseo]

Re: Prevented From Trading by MOJ Because They Did Not Understand What I Do

Something odd with the layout of this page. The server might be straining a bit.

[entseo]

Re: Prevented From Trading by MOJ Because They Did Not Understand What I Do

This above statement nails it for me
No matter what you state YOU are collecting personal data & whilst YOU may ensure your clients comply with the regulation it is irrelevant as far as the MOJ are concerned. YOU are not expected to act like a regulator AND its YOU who should be regulated.....Sorry

I was not regulated because I am not a CMC. I was not regulated, like the other thousands of people who do what I do, because we are not CMCs.

[Amethyst]

Re: Prevented From Trading by MOJ Because They Did Not Understand What I Do

Would you say you did the following ?

• Advertising for or seeking out persons who may have a claim. This includes (but is not
limited to) operating a website.

• Referring details of a claim or claimant, or a cause of action or potential claimant, to
another person. This includes the provision of data or the generation of leads.

[entseo]

Re: Prevented From Trading by MOJ Because They Did Not Understand What I Do

Also not suggesting you do anything other than you claim BUT the MOJ only have your word that you do nothing with that personal data........ eg as far as they are concerned you could be developing a data base to sell onto DCA's

But I'm NOT developing a database to sell onto debt collecting companies. That would be in breach of my contract to my client (a CMC) and also, as far as I can see, a breach of my ICO responsibilities. But most of all, I wouldn't do it because it would be WRONG to do it.

The MOJ cannot just assume that I'm doing something wrong. They have to prove it. They have no proof that I have done anything wrong, yet I have ample proof that they are making presumptions which are mistaken.

Furthermore, acting on their mistaken presumptions, they have taken away my livelihood, charged me for my licence, not given me the licence I paid for, and pocketed the money I paid for the licence.

On top of that, they have not done that to anyone else - just to me.

Does that sound like "Justice"? It doesn't sound like justice to me.

In retrospect it doesn't sound like justice to the original MOJ officer either, who - after he realised his error - refuses to engage in a conversation about this and asks me to talk to another department (who, of course, won't know anything about it).