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Council Tax Liabilty Order issued yesteray

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  • #16
    Re: Council Tax Liabilty Order issued yesteray

    Mrs CW - if there were only two people living at the property it cannot have been a HMO.

    Comment


    • #17
      Re: Council Tax Liabilty Order issued yesteray

      Prior to this letter he had challenged their new CT demands. But they still they want their money even with court dates. Son went to Court and the Council Official, in the Court, said go up to office to sort it out instead. Above is quoted word for word from the letter from the Council after their meeting. Following on from that statement is -

      'At the time of your visit to these offices you advised me that you were only receiving rent form Mr X as this is not the case our records have to be changed to reflect this.'

      That annoyed us because he had previously written a letter saying how when he agreed for his permanent tenant to have his friend come to stay he never gave it another thought regarding HMO. He thought the council would receive their CT from both tenants whilst suitable accommodation was being found for the temp. tenant.

      So this letter dated March 2014 was incorrect saying he told them in the office he only had one tenant. So he wrote again enclosing a copy where he asked for advice regarding having a second person in there and querying HMO when Court Demands started coming.

      Never changed a thing he still has to pay.
      Last edited by Mrs Constant Worry; 26th July 2014, 11:28:AM.

      Comment


      • #18
        Re: Council Tax Liabilty Order issued yesteray

        Thanks Mrs Constant for delaying your housework
        Interesting.
        At one point and for 9 years this house did have 3 tenants, and so I presume did come under the HMO rules.
        That changed Jan 2010 when it became just two tenants.
        I have my room with my own en suite, sink, loo and a garage.
        She has bedroom, own bathroom.
        We share kitchen, living room and utility room.

        End of the day the council are sharks, or hyenas, or both just eating any carcass that's in the way.
        I can't pay it now, but I can in a couple of weeks when a contract I'm about to start is completed and I'm paid.

        The council read out the hierarchy of who is accountable if I can't pay, the housemate was first on list.
        Landlord/owner was also on the list.
        If I am unable to pay, and the housemate is unable to pay, they'd turn to the landlord anyway.
        Why not go after a family member, or geographically my neighbours bedroom is closer to my room than my housemates, why not go after them for the payment?
        It would be about the same level of stupidity and fairness as what they've done.

        Yes, all three were unrelated tenants, as are the two that remain.

        We're looking at getting a standard separate agreements with a extra clauses that landlord is not liable for council tax and when one tenant leaves, they have to find a suitable replacement to take their place .
        Last edited by gmleo; 26th July 2014, 12:27:PM.

        Comment


        • #19
          Re: Council Tax Liabilty Order issued yesteray

          Starting to understand the strict gun laws in the UK now, with disturbing laws like this council tax one they'd be no council left after a week, they'd all be shot.
          It's just wrong that the council can act with such impunity, fraud, straight faced contempt of court on a daily basis with every single angle covered in their favour.

          Makes me sick.

          Comment


          • #20
            Re: Council Tax Liabilty Order issued yesteray

            Yes - this really gets to me. The bottom line (what ever agreement happens in the future is another day) but to me reading your post it raised the fact that our son has to pay - full stop. So I can't see why the owner of the property is not made to pay the same as our son HMO - full stop. Where has this hierarchy as to who is accountable if you can't pay come from?

            Our son - the owner of the property - was not given any hierarchy options. The extract from the council letter is fact - will copy if want proof - so my question is why is our son liable and not your landlord? His tenant had whole house - second temp tenant had own room and shared kitchen, bathroom, etc. not sure if that makes any difference - council don't seem interested HMO full stop as nothing was mentioned in their letter e.g. two tenants = HMO.

            Note: Stopped for lunch now will start housework after.

            Comment


            • #21
              Re: Council Tax Liabilty Order issued yesteray

              As far as I can see the OP has only two people living in the property.

              Your son's had 3 for 9 years and was therefore an HMO making him liable. Presumably there must be some process to apply to have the designation removed but it wouldn't ordinarily be if it was designated an HMO but one room was empty for some reason.

              The hierarchy of liability does not operate so that if the person first on the list doesn't pay they move on to the next one. Once you have someone falling into the correct category, they become the liable person - it is only when there is no-one in that category that they move down to the next one.

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: Council Tax Liabilty Order issued yesteray

                Duplicated Post. x
                Last edited by Mrs Constant Worry; 26th July 2014, 19:36:PM.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: Council Tax Liabilty Order issued yesteray

                  Sorry - I am now confused - maybe it is the heat. Are you saying you think my son had 3 tenants for 9 years? That is the owner of gmleo's property.

                  Son had one tenant for the period in question and he has reverted back to this again. Basically I have said all this above -

                  The permanent tenant, whose rent/rates paid through benefits and had correspondence to prove it asked for a friend to come temporarily - son did not even think about HMO.
                  Son doesn't live in his property - so one tenant prior to this claim by Council.
                  Then claim for Council Tax to son and he thought it was a mistake naively as his permanent tenant said that's wrong I have March Tax Bill - all paid.
                  More letters came to property, addressed to son, it was ignored and Court Letter. So son goes to Court to challenge how this has been calculated but was diverted by a council clerk to go to the Council offices - so does not appear in Court.

                  So.... back to story above -

                  Council declared 2 tenants - owner of property liable house now HMO. Note: It has been reverted back in writing by Council that existing long term tenant has sole responsibility.

                  Question: Is a property classed as HMO if only 2 people there? According to the letter above from Council - Yes.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: Council Tax Liabilty Order issued yesteray

                    Mrs CW - I think you are right, it is the heat, I have got myself mixed up between your son and OP.

                    There is a fairly clear definition here https://www.gov.uk/private-renting/h...ple-occupation

                    Looking at the reason given by the council, that two tenants were in receipt of housing benefit, they have got it wrong.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: Council Tax Liabilty Order issued yesteray

                      S - thank you. I dragged out so much info on this in the past (didn't seem to come across the exact one you have) and I helped my son to battle. Basically the more information I gathered the more we got confused and the statements I copied above, from the Council, we felt that was the end of the road.

                      Situation at present - well this week -

                      1. Previous temporary tenant has asked to move back in as he is in hospital having further surgery which will now seriously affect his walking. My son was told by him Council have agreed his present accommodation will not work and once again has him on emergency housing for a suitable flat downstairs.

                      2. My son has said 'No' you cannot come back straight from hospital until I have it in writing that the Council are not going to land me with another amended Council Tax Bill.

                      3. Now with what you have posted perhaps we use this and question what happens if this person comes back in temporarily? Who is liable for the Council Tax?

                      Summary - who knows this may help our son or may help gmleo

                      Because I see your link is a strong case for HMO - however - are the Council able to say OK not HMO but as you have two people in your property Landlord pays Council Tax. Are we confused now??!!!

                      Anyway I 'Googled' jsut now and found this on CAB. The words Hierarchy appear as quoted in gmleo's post -

                      If only one person lives in a property they will be the liable person. If more than one person lives there, a system called the hierarchy of liability is used to work out who is the liable person. The person at the top, or nearest to the top, of the hierarchy is the liable person. Two people at the same point of the hierarchy will both be liable.


                      The hierarchy of liability is:
                      1. a resident owner-occupier who owns either the leasehold or freehold of all or part of the property
                      2. a resident tenant (My note: can this refer to tenants?)
                      3. a resident who lives in the property and who is a licensee. This means that they are not a tenant, but have permission to stay there
                      4. any resident living in the property, for example, a squatter
                      5. an owner of the property where no one is resident.
                      Last edited by Mrs Constant Worry; 26th July 2014, 19:41:PM. Reason: Tried to make it more readable and add more info

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: Council Tax Liabilty Order issued yesteray

                        I have just found a thread -dated 28 June 2013 from mcg headed 'Liability Order'

                        So it seems he/she was in same or similar position to our son. I wonder what happened there? I have emailed a question to info@housing-ombudsman.org.uk this is the link given to the article StevenLS kindly gave.

                        Not sure if it will clarify anything or even if I get a reply. Email is as follow -

                        Taken from your article –

                        Your home is a House in Multiple Occupation (HMO) if both of the following apply:
                        •at least 3 tenants live there, forming more than 1 household
                        •you share toilet, bathroom or kitchen facilities with other tenants

                        Scenario –

                        1. One long term tenant on his own in house. He is in receipt of Housing Benefit and in receipt of Council Tax Benefit.
                        2. Friend of tenant asks to be a ‘Second Tenant’ until re-housing offer comes along. He is also in receipt of Housing Benefit.
                        3. Landlord agrees second tenant can stay until accommodation is found to meet his disability needs.
                        4. These tenants share toilet, bathroom and kitchen facilities.

                        Questions –

                        1. Is the owner of the property now liable to pay the Council Tax because of second tenant.
                        2. Can the property be classed as an HMO?

                        Thanking you in anticipation.

                        Will obviously let you know if I get a reply - would be good to get a definitive answer. Most probably house not HMO but Council Tax liability of owner when a decision is made by Council.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: Council Tax Liabilty Order issued yesteray

                          P.S.
                          Just a thought did anyone know the outcomes of this case I mentioned above.

                          Dated 28 June 2013 from mcg headed 'Liability Order'

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Re: Council Tax Liabilty Order issued yesteray

                            Be good to hear response Mrs CW

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Re: Council Tax Liabilty Order issued yesteray

                              Thank you for replying stevemLS

                              I may try and phone them this morning as I want to hear response - getting impatient.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Re: Council Tax Liabilty Order issued yesteray

                                Tried phoning instead didn't get anywhere they even thought Shelter may help. (I decided not to phone as too many people needing housing help.)
                                Anyway will help son write to council and quote their letter back to them, as typed up on here, and enclose a copy of this GOV.UK page ref: HMO

                                Comment

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