Cash Shorts and Tips

[BlueStar83]

Hey folks, been trying to get clarification on this for a while now,

I work at a national Pizza chain, custoemrs leave tips and the company has nothing to do with these at all.

I accept that we are responsible for our cash, although I would argue this,
when you have a cash short repayment is demanded immediatly regardless of the amount and this appears to be in contradiction to the employment act 1996 about notice and not taking more than 10% is this correct?? x

[Eloise01]

Re: Cash Shorts and Tips

Sorry but this isn't very clear. Could you please clarify exactly what happens, what policies or contractual terms are in existence, and what those has to do with tips.

[BlueStar83]

Re: Cash Shorts and Tips

Sorry but this isn't very clear. Could you please clarify exactly what happens, what policies or contractual terms are in existence, and what those has to do with tips.

the cash short usually comes from your tips or any cash you have on you.....

when I started ten years ago it was acase on ten per cent of your wage auto deducted a wek untill paid, now say if your down 50 quid they want it there and then, therese nothing in our contracts about this and I'm sure they cant do it? its just so managers get bonus for cash management

[Eloise01]

Re: Cash Shorts and Tips

I am pretty sure that they can. The issue is not whether they can, but how. But this really isn't any clarification. I need to understand, in detail, what happens. Someone buys a pizza, they eat that pizza and then they pay for that pizza in cash. So what happens next? How do you take their money, how do you make change? Where in the process does the shortfall occur? How is that then dealt with, and when? How do they know that it is your shortfall - presumably there is some sort of accounting for this money individually before it goes into the collective till. In as much glorious detail as you can manage. I suspect I know the answers but I don't want to put words into your mouth and lead you, so I need you to tell me.

[wales01man]

Re: Cash Shorts and Tips

Do all the staff who handle cash have the money deducted like this?

[enaid]

Re: Cash Shorts and Tips

My last job was in a pub the tips we got from customers were all pooled. They were then taken by the manager and counted any shortfalls in any of the tills over that week were deducted from the tips. The remaining tips were then divided out pro rata as to your working hours and for all staff even the ones that were not able to accept tips ie the chefs etc.

Quite unfair imho but it was done in all the pubs in that chain.

[Eloise01]

Re: Cash Shorts and Tips

My last job was in a pub the tips we got from customers were all pooled. They were then taken by the manager and counted any shortfalls in any of the tills over that week were deducted from the tips. The remaining tips were then divided out pro rata as to your working hours and for all staff even the ones that were not able to accept tips ie the chefs etc.

Quite unfair imho but it was done in all the pubs in that chain.

Did they deduct tax and NI from the tips before distributing?

[enaid]

Re: Cash Shorts and Tips

Did they deduct tax and NI from the tips before distributing?

Nope, at source and funny we never got any extra if the tills were up lol

[BlueStar83]

Re: Cash Shorts and Tips

hi thanks for the response, there is no central till, we work our own sections and carry cash/credit slips in bumbags, apparently its a securioty risk to have only one till and they wont spend the labour hours manning one, we are not supposed to have more than 400 in cash but can easily have 1000-2000 on a busy night, we are responsible for cash shortages, but im sure in the handbook only if it was our fault....the customer pays us direct

its difficult to pinpoint where shortfalls occur, sometimes they just happen! a pound here or there, but sometimes if you or someone els misses a digit on a credit slip that can lead to a short as can just losing say a tenner, or fraud by other staff members as has happened to me....initially ten years ago i signed a contract to say deductions would be ten percent per week untill paid, then they stopped taking back cash shorts and jsut disciplined you instead now for the last year they just want it all abck str8 away, if your "up" of course they keep that as well.....im sure the 1996 act is being broken, but last time i raised this I was taken off my section lost my tips a week before christmass!

[BlueStar83]

Re: Cash Shorts and Tips

and yess all staff ahve cash deducted int he same way.....bit of a joke really....

[wales01man]

Re: Cash Shorts and Tips

seems like a legal minefield?

[Eloise01]

Re: Cash Shorts and Tips

Nope, at source and funny we never got any extra if the tills were up lol

Tut tut tut. For future reference (or even current reference if you disliked them enough) HMRC would love to know about this! This is a form of what is called "troncing", and where an employer uses a form of tronc system, then the employer becomes liable for collecting tax and NI from these tips.

[Eloise01]

Re: Cash Shorts and Tips

hi thanks for the response, there is no central till, we work our own sections and carry cash/credit slips in bumbags, apparently its a securioty risk to have only one till and they wont spend the labour hours manning one, we are not supposed to have more than 400 in cash but can easily have 1000-2000 on a busy night, we are responsible for cash shortages, but im sure in the handbook only if it was our fault....the customer pays us direct

its difficult to pinpoint where shortfalls occur, sometimes they just happen! a pound here or there, but sometimes if you or someone els misses a digit on a credit slip that can lead to a short as can just losing say a tenner, or fraud by other staff members as has happened to me....initially ten years ago i signed a contract to say deductions would be ten percent per week untill paid, then they stopped taking back cash shorts and jsut disciplined you instead now for the last year they just want it all abck str8 away, if your "up" of course they keep that as well.....im sure the 1996 act is being broken, but last time i raised this I was taken off my section lost my tips a week before christmass!

OK. We are not quite there yet but close enough for me to be pretty clear that my guess is almost certainly accurate. This is the new "little black dress" of the service retail industry. Exceedingly clever because it involves no deductions from wages! The law protects you from deductions from your wages that exceed certain amounts. You start off with, for example, £100 "float". In the course of a shift you add £499.99 for pizzas and you have £499.99 receipts for the pizzas you have sold. So you are required to turn over £599.99 to the employer - that is the amount of pizza you have sold and the amount paid to you for that pizza. But if you turn over £589.99 you are "shortchanging" the employer - because the amount you have taken is £599.99 and that is what you must turn over. No deduction from wage is therefore necessary because you must turn over the £599.99 to balance your takings. I know that a number of places have adopted this sytem. It is legal. You are at liberty to refuse to hand over £599.99 - but they are then at liberty to discipline you for not doing so, or even to treat it as theft! This system makes you accountable for the money you take at the time of taking it, so there are no "shortfalls" and therefore no requirement to deduct from wages.

[BlueStar83]

Re: Cash Shorts and Tips

even if my contract states this? sure i still have it somewhere....there has to be a way around this~? I never signed for this.....and they have never detailed any changes to contracts either....especially since the handbook, says for deductions to be made we have to be at fault?

[Eloise01]

Re: Cash Shorts and Tips

You aren't getting it - there are no deductions! Not in law. You are required to hand over the correct amount of money. In a sense, no different from me going into your restaurant, and being expected to hand over the right amount of money for my pizza. If my pizza costs £6.99 then you expect me to hand over at least £6.99. I can't decide to just hand over £4.99. You won't accept that - you want £6.99 handing over and that is that. The employer is doing the same thing - they are not deducting anything. They are requiring you to hand over the amount of money that your records show you have taken. This is legal.

And your contract won't help you - whatever may have happened in the past is not happening now, and has not been for some time, so the current conditions prevail. You do not have to sign a new contract every time a policy or condition changes - carry on working there and you are deemed in law to have accepted. If this had been a method of deducting from wages then it would have to have been signed for (only certain deductions are permitted without agreement), but it isn't a deduction from wages.

As I said, you are at liberty to refuse to hand over the correct amount - but that will almost certainly have consequences. Legally you haven't a leg to stand on. You could try a grievance, but frankly I wouldn't expect that to be any more successful - if the employer is getting 100% of their takings and no shortfalls, why would they want to change the system?