M&S store card turned credit card - what next?

[Mr $quandaŁot]

To sum it up, I signed up with M&S store card in a store back in 1998 with a Ł500 credit limit. It was later upgraded to a mastercard with no new credit agreement. I defaulted last summer and subsequently made a CCA request. As in most cases, I received a largely illegible application form for their store card.

The last payment was made in May last year. The balance is now over Ł10k. A default notice was sent in September, followed by a final demand. It was then chased by their in-house Pre Legal Recoveries who eventually sent a nasty letter, threatening with a charging order, CCJ and court bailiffs. A well-known consumer lawyer assisted me with writing a reply, quoting Santander vs. Mayhew case etc. This was in November and that was the very last time that Pre Legal Recoveries rang me. I never answered their security questions but tried to keep the call going on in order to waste their time.

Now, all I have received ever since is a final reply M&S Bank, saying that their 'normal collection activity' will continue, another default notice followed by another final demand.

However, there hasn't been any collection activity (apart from the second default notice and final demand) so I'm just wondering what is going to happen next? Is it a wisful thinking that they might just have left it or am I going to receive a letter from Northampton at some point?

Any ideas?

[FlamingParrot]

Re: M&S store card turned credit card - what next?

I guess the main question here would be: did you ever sign a new agreement for the credit card?

On the specific point at issue in Diana Mayhew's case, M&S declined to say whether it had supplied all its cardholders with updated terms and conditions at the time of the upgrade.

If not, you would be in a similar situation to Mayhew, see here for more details ---> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-17670803

Both the defendant on the above case and one of the solicitors involved are LB members.

[gravytrain]

Re: M&S store card turned credit card - what next?

Was there an original signed agreement in Mayhew ?

[Mr $quandaŁot]

Re: M&S store card turned credit card - what next?

I guess the main question here would be: did you ever sign a new agreement for the credit card?


If not, you would be in a similar situation to Mayhew, see here for more details ---> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-17670803

Both the defendant on the above case and one of the solicitors involved are LB members.

No new agreement signed for their mastercard.

Just curious whether M&S (HSBC) might serve the court papers regardless in the hope that I wouldn't defend? I would of course and have made it crystal clear on all my correspondence with them.

[ODC]

Re: M&S store card turned credit card - what next?

I too am in the same position owing a substantial sum on an M&S store card converted to an unasked for Credit Card. I received the usual barrage of threats from M&S before entering the DCA merry go round along with Pseudo solicitors letters and all sorts of warning. It's been recently passed from the Leeds Losers to their Glasgow Heavies BCW. Naturally they have issued the usual dire warnings and empty threats. Their recent missive has now been one of their infamous once in a lifetime 50% discount.

This has been going on for 4 years now so it's obviously they all know they have diddly squat.

I have not spoken to or written to any of the myriad of the leeches who have sent their begging threatomatics nor do I intend to. BCW will sure as hell pass it down the DCA dung pile to some other low life scum and I will have another few weeks of empty threats.

M&S were warned at the time that what the did was wrong and now they are reaping what they have sown.

[gravytrain]

Re: M&S store card turned credit card - what next?

I do not wish to diminish your claim but the case mention won on four issues, only one of which was the section 82 breach, it is as well to look at the enforceabilty of the original agreement before jumping to conclusions IMO, in addition it may be as well to check that it differs in a substantive amount to the "modified" agreement, if it doesn't they could say it was just a variation, just a note of caution.

[Mr $quandaŁot]

Re: M&S store card turned credit card - what next?

I do not wish to diminish your claim but the case mention won on four issues, only one of which was the section 82 breach, it is as well to look at the enforceabilty of the original agreement before jumping to conclusions IMO, in addition it may be as well to check that it differs in a substantive amount to the "modified" agreement, if it doesn't they could say it was just a variation, just a note of caution.

The original agreement was for their store card, not for a master card. This was a significant factor in the Santander vs. Mayhew case as a store card is a limited use card with a fairly small credit limit, while a master card can be used pretty much everywhere. Santander tried this 'variation' argument in court but it was subsequently rejected for the reasons I just mentioned.

This is not to say that M&S/HSBC won't try their luck. I do have a specialist consumer lawyer in mind who would be happy to take the case on no win no fee basis and sounds very confident indeed winning it, hence my decision to defend if need be.

I am surprised that not a single DCA has contacted me so far, hence my thread. Is it just calm before the storm?

[gravytrain]

Re: M&S store card turned credit card - what next?

Yes I understand the argument, I am sure your lawyer will way up the pro's and cons for you. I re read the judgment last night, and I still think that the variation/ modified agreement angle has been a little over stated in most reports, only my opinion. The solicitor who was there will of course have a better idea.
I am only reading the transcript, but it does read like the judgment was based on three other issues as well.

Together with the fact that this was only in the lower court and sets no precedent.
I would only say treat it with caution, you are doing the right thing by taking advice in my opinion.

[ODC]

Re: M&S store card turned credit card - what next?

Gravytrain whilst I understand your concerns in this matter I feel that the fact not one DCA has actually carried out the threats speaks volumes for the fact that they know the alleged debt is unenforceable. After all M&S were warned that what they did was illegal http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...edit-card.html

[mystery1]

Re: M&S store card turned credit card - what next?

http://www.bailii.org/cgi-bin/markup...method=boolean



Was the 2003 upgrade valid? In September 2003 the Defendant's card was "upgraded" to a dual card meaning that it was now a storecard and a Mastercard. The new card was sent unsolicited to the Defendant who needed to sign and activate it before she used it. It was open to the Defendant to decline the new card but she chose to activate it and use it. The new card had an introductory rate of interest for transferred balances and using it would gather loyalty points. The Defendant took advantage of both these features. The Defendant says that the agreement changed from a restricted use debtor-creditor-supplier agreement to being an unrestricted use debtor-creditor agreement and a debtor-creditor-supplier agreement which amounts to a modification of the agreement such that compliance with the requirements set out in regulation 7 of the Consumer Credit (Agreements) Regulations 1983. Compliance with the regulation requires a copy of the fresh agreement containing the relevant prescribed information to be served on the debtor. The Claimant did not allege that any such document was sent to the debtor. It was the Claimant's case that the new card was supplied under a credit token agreement which remained in force and that there was no modification attracting regulation 7. In my judgment the Claimant's analysis is wrong and there was a modification of the agreement requiring compliance with regulation7. The Claimant did not argue that it had complied with the regulation.



M1

[gravytrain]

Re: M&S store card turned credit card - what next?

Yes that was the opinion of this judge in this particular case, it may well be that the judgment applies but until precedent is set each will turn on its own evidence, this is all I am saying.

These forums are full of county court judges opinions which vary from case to case, the Mayhew case was a tour de force in that the solicitors got judgment on a number of issues, including the DN, the section 78 and the lack of an original agreement.
I cant see in the transcript any indication of how much each of these elements contributed to the decision. the creditors seem to think the main factor was the lack of an original agreement( well they would).
caution is always a good idea in my opinion.
In any case Paul will asses the situation accurately for you I am sure.

[ODC]

Re: M&S store card turned credit card - what next?

The DCAs have had 4 yrs to take a case against me and have singularly failed to do so. There is a substantial amount of money involved so surely it would be worth their while to try.

[gravytrain]

Re: M&S store card turned credit card - what next?

The DCAs have had 4 yrs to take a case against me and have singularly failed to do so. There is a substantial amount of money involved so surely it would be worth their while to try.

Why do DCA's sometimes enforce and sometimes not ? I suspect there are a number of factors, you may well be right, i know many cases where dca's buy debts never intending to enforce because they know there is no point, even if they got the judgment.(blood and stone) who knows.

[ODC]

Re: M&S store card turned credit card - what next?

I do wonder though if any of these M&S cases have ever seen the inside of a Courthouse and had the legaility tested. The OFT statement on the illegality speaks volumes to me. M&S were warned and belatedly tried to shut the loophole door after the horse had bolted

[mystery1]

Re: M&S store card turned credit card - what next?

Yes that was the opinion of this judge in this particular case, it may well be that the judgment applies but until precedent is set each will turn on its own evidence, this is all I am saying.

These forums are full of county court judges opinions which vary from case to case, the Mayhew case was a tour de force in that the solicitors got judgment on a number of issues, including the DN, the section 78 and the lack of an original agreement.
I cant see in the transcript any indication of how much each of these elements contributed to the decision. the creditors seem to think the main factor was the lack of an original agreement( well they would).
caution is always a good idea in my opinion.
In any case Paul will asses the situation accurately for you I am sure.

If you read the judgement you will see that the defendant won on point one and the judgement is in favour of the defence on points 2 &3 but the claimant would have won on point 4 (s78) (i understand the defendant would have appealed this if it mattered)

M1