Suspended pending hearing

[jonesjones]

Hello all,

i was wondering if anybody can give me some pointers on an issue which has just cropped up which has potentially severe consequences for me

I work for a high street bank in an advisory role.

Recently a client came to the bank and he took out a product which I recommended he place into trust for the benefit of his beneficiaries. He agreed with the recommendation and i gave him the trust form to complete and return.

The chap is elderly, financially inexperienced and rather forgetful - he came back to the bank on three occasions with the trust form incomplete with no witnesses having singed the form. He asked me if I would complete it. I said I couldn't but I could get somebody else to sign the form. As it transpired my friend signed the form. This has now been flagged.

Ive now been suspended and could well lose my job - gross misconduct.

In my defence, I was not adequately trained. I was only provisionally authorised to sell the product and not 'fully authorised'. The bank withdrew its entire sales team from selling the product last year for a period of 2 months as it did not feel its staff were adequately trained. The resulting one day training session did not mention trusts. I have had no complaints against me, upheld or otherwise (since in the role - 7 years). I had been given a discretionary payrise 2 years ago for my performance and another payrise was pending authorisation from senior leaders up to this point. Mt compliance rating is good. Placing the policy into trust was of no financial gain to me since I have already been 'paid' on the policy before this happened. I was going above and beyond for a customer who was elderly, inexperienced in financial matters and forgetful.

The union is involved to assist me. Ive also got a signed letter from my friend to confirm he also signed the form in good faith.

any thoughts? pointers? what am i looking at?

[leclerc]

Re: Suspended pending hearing

Hello all,

i was wondering if anybody can give me some pointers on an issue which has just cropped up which has potentially severe consequences for me

I work for a high street bank in an advisory role.

Recently a client came to the bank and he took out a product which I recommended he place into trust for the benefit of his beneficiaries. He agreed with the recommendation and i gave him the trust form to complete and return.

The chap is elderly, financially inexperienced and rather forgetful - he came back to the bank on three occasions with the trust form incomplete with no witnesses having singed the form. He asked me if I would complete it. I said I couldn't but I could get somebody else to sign the form. As it transpired my friend signed the form. This has now been flagged.
Was the form eventually completed and did your friend complete the form? How was it flagged and for what reason was it flagged?
Ive now been suspended and could well lose my job - gross misconduct.
What exactly are they saying that you have done? You did not force the friend to sign the form and you did not complete the form. What are the grounds for GM?
In my defence, I was not adequately trained. I was only provisionally authorised to sell the product and not 'fully authorised'. The bank withdrew its entire sales team from selling the product last year for a period of 2 months as it did not feel its staff were adequately trained. The resulting one day training session did not mention trusts. I have had no complaints against me, upheld or otherwise (since in the role - 7 years). I had been given a discretionary payrise 2 years ago for my performance and another payrise was pending authorisation from senior leaders up to this point. Mt compliance rating is good. Placing the policy into trust was of no financial gain to me since I have already been 'paid' on the policy before this happened. I was going above and beyond for a customer who was elderly, inexperienced in financial matters and forgetful.

The union is involved to assist me. Ive also got a signed letter from my friend to confirm he also signed the form in good faith.

any thoughts? pointers? what am i looking at?

What has your union said cos I am not quite sure as to the grounds for GM with what you have said unless they are suggesting undue influence on an elderly customer or that they might have had dementia yet the product was still sold....

[Shadowcat]

Re: Suspended pending hearing

Surely nobody should have signed the form for this customer apart from somebody from his own family or circle of friends no matter how many times the form submission was attempted. The implications of somebody on the bank's side getting involved in signatory, no matter how well meant, are not good. Mental capability has to be established and proven before selling any product, if it were a member of my family I would not be happy about anybody within the bank signing on their behalf and would lodge a complaint.

Having said that it does sound like inadequate training may be a defence in this instance if you had not been made aware of the implications prior to this.

[jonesjones]

Re: Suspended pending hearing

Was the form eventually completed and did your friend complete the form? How was it flagged and for what reason was it flagged?

The witness section was completed by my friend. I did not complete this. It was flagged because the insurance firm sent a copy to the client and he called them querying who the witness was! Even though i had pre-arranged with him i would get somebody else to sign it since he had failed to do so on 3 occasions. He did not call the insurance firm to complain, merely querying the identity of the witness. Infact, im led to believe he was very complimentary of me on the phone to them


What exactly are they saying that you have done? You did not force the friend to sign the form and you did not complete the form. What are the grounds for GM?

that I have failed to follow the correct procedure for completion of a trust form that I asked a friend to sign who did not know the customer


What has your union said cos I am not quite sure as to the grounds for GM with what you have said unless they are suggesting undue influence on an elderly customer or that they might have had dementia yet the product was still sold....

the union have not said a great deal to be honest. just that they will help me. ive put a case forward on email and forwarded it to the union rep and his response was of the "this is really good - it helps me to understand the case" ilk. The client, whilst being elderly, forgetful and inexperienced in financial matters is of sound mind. The advice/sale was conducted over a 2 stage meeting.

[leclerc]

Re: Suspended pending hearing

Does your training or any policies forbid absolutely from getting any member of staff(I assume the member of staff was a MOS rather than general public) from witnessing the signature on the form? As far as I am aware the witness is merely witnessing the form being signed, is that right?

[jonesjones]

Re: Suspended pending hearing

Does your training or any policies forbid absolutely from getting any member of staff(I assume the member of staff was a MOS rather than general public) from witnessing the signature on the form? As far as I am aware the witness is merely witnessing the form being signed, is that right?

The witness is in effect witnessing the signature of the forms, yes.

As far as training goes I would make the following points;
1/ the bank introduced the product in question in may 2011
2/ it sent its entire sales force on a three day course which focussed on interview structure and presentation skills - not on product knowledge or how to process applications
3/ the bank de authorised its entire workforce from selling this product for two months last year as it felt its advisers were a risk to the bank
4/ the subsequent one day training course did not give advice nor guidance on trusts
5/ I passed this one day course (but with a 'development need' - not related to trusts, but we were not tested on trusts)

As far as I am aware it would say somewhere in the manual that the witness must be independent of the bank (which it was - it was my friend, not bank staff) and be known to the customer. This latter part I was genuinely unaware of re. training shortfall.

[leclerc]

Re: Suspended pending hearing

You are on dodgy ground if the friend is someone you know and not a member of bank staff because it could be said you had undue influence over an elderly gentleman.
Did you ring your friend to go to the bank to witness the signature? Was the paperwork completed in a financial institution? Why did you not call a colleague to witness the signature?
Does the paperwork for the Trust account specifically state that the customer must know the witness?

If you have contacted a friend to witness the signature then the question I would ask is whether you have done this before?

[jonesjones]

Re: Suspended pending hearing

You are on dodgy ground if the friend is someone you know and not a member of bank staff because it could be said you had undue influence over an elderly gentleman.
Did you ring your friend to go to the bank to witness the signature? Was the paperwork completed in a financial institution? Why did you not call a colleague to witness the signature?
Does the paperwork for the Trust account specifically state that the customer must know the witness?

If you have contacted a friend to witness the signature then the question I would ask is whether you have done this before?

My friend witnessed the form in a non-financial environment

I knew that I could not witness the form and I knew a fellow bank staff member could not sign.

I don't know if the trust account specifically states that the customer must know the witness

I have not done this before. As I said in my opening gambit, Ive got no previous since in the industry (2007). My annual rating is the best possible and has been so since ive been at the firm (2 yrs). The chap was elderly, forgetful and came to the branch at least 3 times without the witness section complete. He asked me if I would get a witness as he couldnt get one! As I had a good relationship with him I agreed.

I dont half regret it now!

[labman]

Re: Suspended pending hearing

So does this mean you took the form out of the bank to be signed by your friend?

Do you have the relevant authority to take this sort of document out of the bank?

If you do, do you have the authority to share them with anyone?

If so, does anyone include people for whom the customer has not given his express permission for sharing of the data?

[leclerc]

Re: Suspended pending hearing

My friend witnessed the form in a non-financial environment

I knew that I could not witness the form and I knew a fellow bank staff member could not sign.
If a fellow bankworker could not sign the form then surely, in hindsight, you would suggest to the person to get either a carer, priest/vicar or someone who knew him to sign the form other than someone you personally knew because the principle is the same ie undue influence.
I don't know if the trust account specifically states that the customer must know the witness
Did you have an investigation meeting? Were you asked questions, usually they start with the easy ones, ie how long have you worked in the bank, etc, etc, ?
I have not done this before. As I said in my opening gambit, Ive got no previous since in the industry (2007). My annual rating is the best possible and has been so since ive been at the firm (2 yrs). The chap was elderly, forgetful and came to the branch at least 3 times without the witness section complete. He asked me if I would get a witness as he couldnt get one! As I had a good relationship with him I agreed.
That is where you say that you are NOT allowed to do so whether you have know him 50 years or 2 years so therefore advice should be given even if you have to write it down and paperclip it to the trust form.
I dont half regret it now!

Right, back to the business of repairing what has been done. Do you have your bank's code of conduct? I worked for RBS Group for 11ish years before being sacked for GM(I was as guilty as hell and knew that I was, lol! so different scernario). The main thing we are looking for are the grounds or examples of what can be construed as Gross Misconduct. If you do not have that then it is essential that you get them.

[jonesjones]

Re: Suspended pending hearing

Right, back to the business of repairing what has been done. Do you have your bank's code of conduct? I worked for RBS Group for 11ish years before being sacked for GM(I was as guilty as hell and knew that I was, lol! so different scernario). The main thing we are looking for are the grounds or examples of what can be construed as Gross Misconduct. If you do not have that then it is essential that you get them.

Thanks for your help so far.

Yes, when they suspended me they sent a copy of the disciplinary policy with it. the 'example' of GM i'm up for is the following:
[/LIST]serious breaches of regulatory rules and / or company operating procedures

Other examples, such as aggressive behaviour, unauthorised absence, breaches of IT policies, fraud, etc. are not relevant in this case.

I guess my main defence is;
1/ my previous good behaviours/ratings and the consistency of these good behaviours
2/ the training was insufficient (which I can prove) and therefore did not believe I was putting the client or the bank at risk and I should be retrained and
3/ I did not achieve any financial gain/benefit whatsoever and was acting in good faith on behalf of an inexperienced person with regards to financial matters
4/ My friend is willing to write a letter and provide a copy of his driving licence to prove his identity to confirm the sequence of events as he recalls

[jonesjones]

Re: Suspended pending hearing

So does this mean you took the form out of the bank to be signed by your friend?

Do you have the relevant authority to take this sort of document out of the bank?

If you do, do you have the authority to share them with anyone?

If so, does anyone include people for whom the customer has not given his express permission for sharing of the data?

1/ yes
2/ im not 100% sure. My line manager knows that I AND other advisers often take work home to complete. He has never told us not to do this. whether ive signed a document somewhere stating i am/am not allowed to do so, I dont know
3/ no - although the trust form does not contain any sensitive information other than the clients address
4/ the customer gave me permission to witness the form as he said asked me at our umpteenth meeting "cant you get somebody to sign it? I'll leave it with you"

I can see where you are coming from here and I had not thought of it like this. Perhaps the chair will see this as more of an issue than the actual offence (asking a person who does not know the client to witness a form) and so I'd best arrange some sort of defence for myself here too.

any suggestions?

[Shadowcat]

Re: Suspended pending hearing

I think point 2 is a big issue. Training has to be addressed before we can even start to be the banking capital of the world. Your intentions were good, I can see that but sadly, there are some things we can't help with. In my job, I can only administer paracetomol from our first-aid kit but when a member of the public has a headache or bad time of the month pain I know I have a stronger brand in my handbag that would help them enormously but I am just not allowed. I couldn't even give someone a Rennie if they had heartburn. It's sad and goes against my desire to help but those are the rules and I understand them completely.

I think if you were never trained regarding this scenario, there will be your defence. Just don't do it again and make that clear to your company, no matter how much you want to help someone out.

Like I say, it's a shame but we've created the compensation culture (well, America did) and we have to now live with the consequences.

[leclerc]

Re: Suspended pending hearing

I think point 2 is where the focus should come but I think that there should be some contrition on your part in that you accept that in hindsight that it was a mistake to have asked a friend of yours to witness the signature based on the fact that he had had to make repeated visits to branch to sign forms and that it was clear that he was vulnerable. Your record is important in that there are x number of years with no complaint whatsoever. Furthermore it was one lapse and that clearly you were not fully aware of the breach.
I think you need to speak to your rep BUT at the same time you NEED to prepare for the worst and get your CV up to date in case of worst case scenario of sacking which is not the end of the world.
Try not to be too critical of the training but have any evidence where it was stated you needed further training which at the time of the breach was incomplete.
Hope that helps

[jonesjones]

Re: Suspended pending hearing

I think point 2 is a big issue. Training has to be addressed before we can even start to be the banking capital of the world. Your intentions were good, I can see that but sadly, there are some things we can't help with. In my job, I can only administer paracetomol from our first-aid kit but when a member of the public has a headache or bad time of the month pain I know I have a stronger brand in my handbag that would help them enormously but I am just not allowed. I couldn't even give someone a Rennie if they had heartburn. It's sad and goes against my desire to help but those are the rules and I understand them completely.

I think if you were never trained regarding this scenario, there will be your defence. Just don't do it again and make that clear to your company, no matter how much you want to help someone out.

Like I say, it's a shame but we've created the compensation culture (well, America did) and we have to now live with the consequences.

A very good example! I did not do this to defraud the client or the bank, nor for any financial gain whatsoever. I just didn't think at the time

In terms of the training I had (or didn't have) has anybody got any pointers on how to tackle this at the hearing?

I am going to seek legal advice once ive got my hands on the full statement from the bank on the alleged wrongdoing and ive got the union involved who will represent me but, alas, I could do with any help/suggestions as dismissal will undoubtedly have a deep and lasting effect on my career