recorded telephone conversations

[andrew2332]

Re: recorded telephone conversations

I am curious about this last point to. Am I still allowed to demand telephone recordings as opposed to the transcripts they are telling me they will send me?

[stevemLS]

Re: recorded telephone conversations

Your right is to obtain the information held, the content, not to demand it is provided in any particular form.

So, they would comply with their subject access obligations by providing either a transcript or a copy of the recording.

But you cannot oblige them to provide a transcript of a recording.

[anatolian]

Re: recorded telephone conversations

Late to be contributing to this thread but have just had surprising and fascinating webchat with ICO regarding this. The reason I contacted them was because a retailer who sold me dud product got difficult when I mentioned that I was recording the call. They refused to speak to me.
Since I was recording the call in order to be able to use the contents in what promises to be a future dispute, I didn't want to be hampered in my use of the content of the conversation so I went to the ICO in order to ask whether they had the right to 'refuse' to talk to me if I was recording (as they do) the conversation.
I use an app on Skype which is simple and saves the agony and time spent on SAR.
It turns out that this kind of issue falls under the domestic purposes exemption of the DP act. If you, as a consumer, record a conversation with a retailer's customer service dept for use in dispute resolution (ie to prove what was said) you are entitled a) to do it without informing the other side, on the assumption that they have already advised you that the call is being recorded by them. b) use its contents in negotiations with the company in question and with any legal adviser/court the dispute goes forward to.
This was a revelation for me and I believe a lot of us have been ignorant of this.
If you want a copy of the webchat, please pm me.
All the best,

[R0b]

Re: recorded telephone conversations

Interesting from the ICO but the domestic purposes exemption only applies to personal use. To then extend that to legal proceedings would (in my opinion) go beyond personal use and would not fall under the exemption. That position sits with the CJEU Lindqvist case which commented that referring to a person on an internet page would not fall under the exemption as it is still deemed as processing personal data.

I know its completely different to recording calls but the same principle applies. The recording the call of a business would still amount to personal data (the businesses' personal data even though they are not a person). By relying on the evidence in court, it no longer becomes private but public.

I think the ICO held the same position about a website of poor solicitors which published personal details and information and they would not get involved as they thought it was exempt. A claim was submitted to court and the court disagreed with the ICO's view.

If you look on the ICO's guidance about domestic purposes it states that you are exempt if it is for personal, family or household affairs. I would say using recorded calls evidence in court does not constitute personal, family or household affairs.

If you obtained consent at the beginning then I would say fair game but secretly recording without knowledge could be deemed to fall within the DPA and therefore if passed on, a breach.

I suspect some courts might take different views in that if it is highly relevant and has been disclosed then it will be admissible, on the other hand some might say you should not come to court with 'unclean hands'.

There was a very recent employment case which was struck out and the claimant ordered to pay costs for secretly recording the lawyer and heads of NHS trust after leaving the room. The said that there could be no fair trial because it was done in secret.

Interesting point of view though.

[anatolian]

Re: recorded telephone conversations

have pm'd you the transcript of the chat. It appears that 'personal domestic' includes your own consumer issues.

[R0b]

Re: recorded telephone conversations

it's an interesting point and I can see both sides of the argument. Ultimately it will be the courts discretion as to whether it will be admitted as evidence and weigh up the various factors including whether or not it would be unfair to allow it and its relevance. Other considerations such as confidential information disclosed, was the call made without prejudice.

Even lets say it was admissible, there are likely questions raised by the other side if they were smart enough to say that if there were multiple recordings then to avoid the person selectively picking out conversations which are in favour of his claim all of the calls must be disclosed and the meta data and contents on the phone itself.

I still see it as a form of data collection but this is my opinion and that of course doesn't count for much.

In addition, there could be a potential criminal offence under the regulation of investigatory powers 2000 but thats a whole other discussion in itself.

[anatolian]

Re: recorded telephone conversations

Here is transcript of the webchat with ICO.
People can draw their own conclusions.

My initial question to them was:

This was the message on the system of the retailer I called to complain about a product they'd supplied that wasn't fit for purpose.

"calls will be recorded and monitored for quality or training purposes"
I advised the rep that I also was recording the call (using a skype feature). Later in the call, I was passed to another rep who said she refused me the right to record the call.
I know I'm allowed to record for my own use, but the reason I stated that I was recording is that I want to be able to use what they say in case of a dispute.
The 2nd rep refused, as I've said, my right to record.
My questions are:
1/ Can they refuse to speak to me if I'm recording a call, even if they are also recording it?
2/ The announcement at the beginning of the call is that the call is being recorded. That means that both parties have been informed of same since the employee is aware that all calls are recorded. In this case, am I even obliged to inform them that I'm recording if I want to be able to use the recording in case there is a "he said, she said" dispute?
Thnks for your answer


Hi, Please find attached a transcript of your online conversation with us. Regards, Information Commissioners Office

[10:56 AM] John has joined the room
[10:56 AM] ico_xxxxxx has joined the room
[10:57 AM] John:	did you see my questions?
[10:57 AM] ico_xxxxxx:	Hello John, I'm just reading it now
[10:58 AM] ico_xxxxxx:	Thank you for your patience. I will be with you shortly.
[10:59 AM] John:	no problem
[10:59 AM] ico_xxxxxx has joined the room
[11:08 AM] John:	are you still there?
[11:10 AM] ico_xxxxxx:	Sorry for the wait. We can not say that a person from a company can refuse to speak to you if you're recording a call, This would be a matter of customer service and you should raise this with the organisation concerned. If you are recording the calls purely for your own domestic purpose then this would not breach the Data Protection Act.
[11:12 AM] John:	thank you xxxxxx, but if I'm calling them and the recording at the beginning of the call says it's being recorded then both parties have clearly agreed to the recording and therefore the contents of the recording can legitimately be used in evidence.
[11:15 AM] John:	I have learned from experience that companies, although theoretically obliged to make copies of their own recordings available upon request, have a habit of 'losing' them when the contents show that they've made a mistake or have gone back on an engagement.
[11:19 AM] ico_xxxxxx:	As previously mentioned if the purpose of the call is for domestic use, this includes your own personal, family or household affairs, this could include using the information when seeking your own legal advice. Also there is no need for an individual to announce the recording if the recording falls within these reasons.
[11:20 AM] John:	so are you saying that my 'household affairs' include seeking legal advice on a dispute with a retailer
[11:21 AM] John:	and that I therefore can do this without announcing that the call is being recorded by me?
[11:22 AM] ico_xxxxxx:	I do, if this is a matter of a personal issue.
[11:22 AM] John:	what if the company denies something they said during the call and 'loses' the recording? Can I then use mine to demonstrate that I'm telling the truth?
[11:23 AM] John:	does a 'personal issue' include getting compensation for faulty goods as long as they are for personal use?
[11:23 AM] ico_xxxxxx:	You can.
[11:24 AM] John:	so I don't have to announce that I'm recording and if there is a dispute about what was said/promised I can use the recording to prove that I am telling the truth?
[11:26 AM] ico_xxxxxx:	Yes, you can use the information with the company to demonstrate your dispute.
[11:27 AM] John:	but only with them, not with a third party who isn't someone helping me with the case should there be one
[11:28 AM] John:	and my not announcing that I am making a recording has no effect on my right to use its contents with the said company?
[11:35 AM] ico_xxxxxx:	Question 1: you should not use the information outside of the domestic purpose, for example you can use it with the company to demonstrate you concern or to represent you with a legal body/court, Question 2: You do not have to announce you're recording the call when this is recorded for the above reasons. If you wish to discuss this further and in more detail it would be better for you to call our helpline 0303 123 1113 where you can speak to a case officer.
[11:36 AM] John:	also, could you respond to this question specifically: does a 'personal issue' include getting compensation for faulty goods as long as they are for my or my family's use?
[11:37 AM] John:	and can I please have a copy of this chat sent to my email?
[11:43 AM] ico_xxxxxx:	If using the call for claiming of compensation falls within the scope of your own personal use with either yourself or your legal representative. We can email you a copy of this chat. Once the chat is over, you will be asked to enter your email address if you want a copy of it. Click into the email box and enter your email address. You will receive a transcript soon after from the email address ICO OperationsServiceDelivery@ico.org.uk
[11:46 AM] John:	Thank you very much for your thoroughness. I have to say I'm surprised that I'm permitted to record without announcing it for this kind of use, even within these limitations. All the literature implies that it is literally just so you can listen to the recording by yourself. Is there anywhere online that gives a usage description that more accurately mirrors what you have told me?
[11:51 AM] ico_xxxxxx:	There is some information on our website in the exemptions section under 'Domestic Purpose' I've provided a link below https://ico.org.uk/for-organisations...on/exemptions/ https://ico.org.uk/media/for-organis...a-guidance.pdf
[11:52 AM] John:	xxxxxx, (I'm assuming that's your name) my most sincere and grateful thanks.
[11:53 AM] ico_xxxxxx:	I've also given you a link to the Social network and online forums information which also talks about domestic purpose.
[11:54 AM] John:	I'm very grateful. This has been a revelation. I think most consumers are unaware that they have this right and the retail community does a lot to discourage people actually knowing and exercising their rights in this respect.
[11:58 AM] John:	xxxxxx, can we end this chat now? Please do the necessary so that I can submit my email address and receive the copy. Again, my sincere thanks for your help.
[11:59 AM] ico_xxxxxx:	We can and thank you for using our live chat service. Have a good day.
[11:59 AM] John:	you too
[11:59 AM] John has left the room