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council tax and council recovery charges

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  • #76
    Re: council tax and council recovery charges

    AS THE COUNCIL ARE STILL EVADING MY FREEDOM OF INFORMATION REQUESTS, I HAVE JUST SENT THEM THIS


    Dear Ms. zzzzzz

    Thank you for your response, the contents of which are duly noted.

    I have been extremely patient up to now but I feel that I am being ignored once again. It is near impossible to extract information from my local Council without the need to submit a Freedom of Information request so it is most important that any information recieved under such a request is both accurate and supplied to me within the time constraints allowed.

    To remind you; your response to my FOI request zzzz was incomplete and I requested further clarification of the points raised by me in my email to you on the xxx June 2012.

    To date, I have recieved no answer from your Corporate systems dept. contrary to your reassuring comments in your email of June 2012.

    I must insist on a final response from you concerning my question number 5 within two working days of this email.

    Failure to do so will force me into submitting complaint to the I.C.O without further notice to XXXX council

    With regards

    Comment


    • #77
      Re: council tax and council recovery charges

      So did they reply within the two working days?

      I have been reading this with interest as I am in a similar position.

      Missed 2 payments on council tax, they have added £107 authority costs and £3 court fees.

      I have a summons to appear before the magistrates court, I spoke to the council offering a payment plan, they will not accept it without me giving my employers details, they then said how much do I want to pay today, after their lack of respect or understanding, I said " I don't think I want to pay anything now"

      The council also told me the court hearing is only to show that I owe the money, I am not given the chance to explain anything and the courts will not accept a payment plan.

      So they won't accept a payment plan, I certainly won't be concerned or worried about the baliffs, so a payment plan will be the result, it will just mean it has added baliff fees.

      What a carry on :-)

      Comment


      • #78
        Re: council tax and council recovery charges

        keeping on the theme of council tax

        when the magistrates court issue these liability orders, are they done under a legal or administrative process in the issue of these orders, i am talking on predetermined costs etc, the fact that they dont go in front of a magistrate, only the court clerk to do a rubber stamp job

        the administrative process before being outlawed by the british constitution were knowm as STAR CHAMBER COURTS


        this administrative process was outlawed as to the british constitution through common law

        so i ask the question

        as these council tax liability hearings no more than Star Chamber Courts reserected

        and please

        none of this Free Man stuff, lets keep it factual and within english law

        http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct...swvLUYpMIfMzpQ
        Last edited by miliitant; 19th September 2012, 04:52:AM.

        Comment


        • #79
          Re: council tax and council recovery charges

          (1) why does a liability order application, be it council tax, CSA,DVLA have to go in front of a magistrate to be authorised (statute /case law link please)

          (2) as the council are printing their own summons etc, is that legal as only courts can issue summons, (any other institution has to be a requisition) is the process now an administrative process rather than a legal process. if its an administrative process than that is unlawfull as admin courts were axed in 1689

          BELOW IS THE FULL TRANSCRIPT OF THE BRENTFORD CASE, THE ONE WHERE COUNCILS REPLY ON YOUR REQUEST ON THE VALIDITY OF COUNCILS SENDING OUT A SUMMONS IN THEIR OWN RIGHT, BUT THE COUNCILS ONLY GIVE THE FIRST HALF OF THE JUDGEMENT, I AM GIVING THE FULL, UNEDITED JUDGEMENT


          magistrates’ summons are meant to be judicial and not administrative processes. Looking at case law, a court case from 1975 relating to such summons was R. v. Brentford Justices ex parte Catlin, where Lord Chief Justice Widgery stated “a decision by magistrates whether to issue a summons pursuant to information laid involves the exercise of a judicial function, and is not merely administrative.” See All England Law Reports [1975] 2 All ER QBD p206-207 (I am attaching a word document with scan-in of those pages from the law reports for you to read).Lord Chief Justice Widgery was ruling on the affixing of a judge’s signature by rubber stamp – and magistrates’ summons issued by the council are not individually signed by judges, and so a rubber stamp or photocopy is used. He said:“It is perfectly proper for a signature to be affixed by way of rubber stamp, whether applied by the justice or by a clerk or an employee of the magistrates’ clerk with the authority, general or specific, of the justice, and that conclusion, but for one matter, would be sufficient in my view to dispose of this application, because assuming that an information was indeed laid before the justice whose signature in facsimile form subsequently appeared on the summons then all the applicant’s attack on the subsequent proceedings would fall to the ground straight away and it would not be necessary to consider the other points raised in this application. However in this case it may be that, as the applicant I think wished this court to infer from the document before it, the justice before whom the information was originally laid was not the one whose signature appeared on the summons in facsimile form, and indeed I think the applicant would go further and say that this court should infer in all the circumstances of this case and proceeded on the basis that no information was ever placed before any justice prior to the issue of the summons; the summons was a mere creature of a clerk in the magistrates’ court office. It is not necessary to embark on an examination of that aspect of the matter; indeed this court would be quite unable to do so in view of the material before it, but counsel for the justices conceded certainly that if the summons had come into existence in the manner which I last referred to, namely as a purely administrative operation without any information being laid, then the summons would be bad … before a summons or warrant is issued the information must be laid before a magistrate and he must go through the judicial exercise of deciding whether a summons or warrant ought to be issued or not. If a magistrate authorises the issue of a summons without having applied his mind to the information then he is guilty of dereliction of duty and if in any particular justices’ clerk’s office a practice goes on of summonses being issued without information being laid before the magistrate at all, then a very serious instance of maladministration arises which should have the attention of the authorities without delay”.These summonses are issued by the council’s computer. It is not credible to believe that a magistrate has reviewed the information before the computer sends out the letter. The court cases are handled in great bulk – thousands at a time, and I believe this is just an administrative summons, with no judicial aspect at all. It may be that magistrates have given images of their signatures to West Lindsey Council for the computer to use to generate summonses, as council tax case summonses are issued by the council, and not by the court, tending to show that there is no real judicial oversight. No magistrate has the legal right to give West Lindsey Council the power to issue summonses without proper adjudication in each case, by a magistrate (and not by the magistrate’s clerk or the council computer system), of whether there is grounds to issue a summons in the first place. While the clerk may affix the signature by rubber stamp, or the computer simply paste in a facsimile of the signature, there must be a real live magistrate reviewing the summons before it is sent out. I do not believe that to be the case.
          Last edited by miliitant; 22nd September 2012, 12:52:PM.

          Comment


          • #80
            Re: council tax and council recovery charges

            Originally posted by miliitant View Post
            be my guest on this one as i will gladly look into your thread for updates

            the more we expose the abuse of legislation by local authorities for gain the better in my book

            I agree, if everyone did for their area and got the responses posted up I`m more than sure they are all doing the same thing, effectively ripping off the little man to feed the fat man!!

            Comment


            • #81
              Re: council tax and council recovery charges

              I saw a freedom of information request where it was asked if it was legal to have a Signature of the Clerk to the Justices doctored onto the summons. The council quoted the "R. v. Brentford Justices ex parte Catlin" case to get out of that one. The problem was they inadvertently provided a lead to the far more incriminating substance of the case detailed in post #79.

              Essentially, "A decision by magistrates whether to issue a summons pursuant to information laid involves the exercise of a judicial function, and is not merely administrative".

              I should say there's an absence in every Magistrates' court in the country of a judicial function in these liability order applications. How else do you explain courts granting liability orders for £10, £5 and even as little as 1 penny?

              Comment


              • #82
                Re: council tax and council recovery charges

                Originally posted by miliitant View Post
                (1) why does a liability order application, be it council tax, CSA,DVLA have to go in front of a magistrate to be authorised (statute /case law link please)

                (2) as the council are printing their own summons etc, is that legal as only courts can issue summons, (any other institution has to be a requisition) is the process now an administrative process rather than a legal process. if its an administrative process than that is unlawfull as admin courts were axed in 1689

                BELOW IS THE FULL TRANSCRIPT OF THE BRENTFORD CASE, THE ONE WHERE COUNCILS REPLY ON YOUR REQUEST ON THE VALIDITY OF COUNCILS SENDING OUT A SUMMONS IN THEIR OWN RIGHT, BUT THE COUNCILS ONLY GIVE THE FIRST HALF OF THE JUDGEMENT, I AM GIVING THE FULL, UNEDITED JUDGEMENT


                magistrates’ summons are meant to be judicial and not administrative processes. Looking at case law, a court case from 1975 relating to such summons was R. v. Brentford Justices ex parte Catlin, where Lord Chief Justice Widgery stated “a decision by magistrates whether to issue a summons pursuant to information laid involves the exercise of a judicial function, and is not merely administrative.” See All England Law Reports [1975] 2 All ER QBD p206-207 (I am attaching a word document with scan-in of those pages from the law reports for you to read).Lord Chief Justice Widgery was ruling on the affixing of a judge’s signature by rubber stamp – and magistrates’ summons issued by the council are not individually signed by judges, and so a rubber stamp or photocopy is used. He said:“It is perfectly proper for a signature to be affixed by way of rubber stamp, whether applied by the justice or by a clerk or an employee of the magistrates’ clerk with the authority, general or specific, of the justice, and that conclusion, but for one matter, would be sufficient in my view to dispose of this application, because assuming that an information was indeed laid before the justice whose signature in facsimile form subsequently appeared on the summons then all the applicant’s attack on the subsequent proceedings would fall to the ground straight away and it would not be necessary to consider the other points raised in this application. However in this case it may be that, as the applicant I think wished this court to infer from the document before it, the justice before whom the information was originally laid was not the one whose signature appeared on the summons in facsimile form, and indeed I think the applicant would go further and say that this court should infer in all the circumstances of this case and proceeded on the basis that no information was ever placed before any justice prior to the issue of the summons; the summons was a mere creature of a clerk in the magistrates’ court office. It is not necessary to embark on an examination of that aspect of the matter; indeed this court would be quite unable to do so in view of the material before it, but counsel for the justices conceded certainly that if the summons had come into existence in the manner which I last referred to, namely as a purely administrative operation without any information being laid, then the summons would be bad … before a summons or warrant is issued the information must be laid before a magistrate and he must go through the judicial exercise of deciding whether a summons or warrant ought to be issued or not. If a magistrate authorises the issue of a summons without having applied his mind to the information then he is guilty of dereliction of duty and if in any particular justices’ clerk’s office a practice goes on of summonses being issued without information being laid before the magistrate at all, then a very serious instance of maladministration arises which should have the attention of the authorities without delay”.These summonses are issued by the council’s computer. It is not credible to believe that a magistrate has reviewed the information before the computer sends out the letter. The court cases are handled in great bulk – thousands at a time, and I believe this is just an administrative summons, with no judicial aspect at all. It may be that magistrates have given images of their signatures to West Lindsey Council for the computer to use to generate summonses, as council tax case summonses are issued by the council, and not by the court, tending to show that there is no real judicial oversight. No magistrate has the legal right to give West Lindsey Council the power to issue summonses without proper adjudication in each case, by a magistrate (and not by the magistrate’s clerk or the council computer system), of whether there is grounds to issue a summons in the first place. While the clerk may affix the signature by rubber stamp, or the computer simply paste in a facsimile of the signature, there must be a real live magistrate reviewing the summons before it is sent out. I do not believe that to be the case.
                Im just about to go head to head with my council over the above. Do you know if this Regina vs Brentford is extant and hasnt been appealed anywhere else and overturned. If so I think my council shouldnt have a leg to stand on. Also where was this case judgement in this form provided from. I think it might be in my best interests to double check this with a second source - advice anyone?

                Also very iomportant Mr Miliitant just want to check is the bold text at the very end your comment or part of the judgement

                Comment


                • #83
                  Re: council tax and council recovery charges

                  Originally posted by truthseekers666 View Post
                  Im just about to go head to head with my council over the above. Do you know if this Regina vs Brentford is extant and hasnt been appealed anywhere else and overturned....
                  I have it on good authority that the case was referred to as recently as 26 April 2016.

                  "Court Determination of Application"

                  Paragraphs 8 & 9:

                  8). I have referred myself to Stones Justices manual; and to R v West London Metropolitan Stipendiary Magistrate ex parte Khan (1979) and in particular to the explanation to the approach to issuing a summons by Lord Widgery C.J.

                  9). I have a discretion whether or not to issue a summons......

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Re: council tax and council recovery charges

                    Originally posted by truthseekers666 View Post
                    ....Also where was this case judgement in this form provided from. I think it might be in my best interests to double check this with a second source - advice anyone?

                    Also very iomportant Mr Miliitant just want to check is the bold text at the very end your comment or part of the judgement
                    The quote was from the article below:
                    https://misesuk.org/2011/12/18/council-tax-and-the-law/

                    Some of the content is apparently part of the judgment in the Brentford Justices' case but the part in bold is the author of the article's contribution.

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Re: council tax and council recovery charges

                      Originally posted by outlawlgo View Post
                      The quote was from the article below:
                      https://misesuk.org/2011/12/18/council-tax-and-the-law/

                      Some of the content is apparently part of the judgment in the Brentford Justices' case but the part in bold is the author of the article's contribution.
                      Thanks you for your time and advice. Its good to know that my instincts regarding these letters were correct and that the council have no basis for issuing them. Your confirmation gives me strength to try to push back now. I will let you know how I fare.

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Re: council tax and council recovery charges

                        Bear in mind that the Brentford case dealt with "information laid" and a council tax summons involves a "complaint made", however, both involve summonses which you would hope are properly considered.

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Re: council tax and council recovery charges

                          Hi everyone,

                          This is my first post which will hopefully help someone. Having found myself in a similar situation with regard a liability order, I was forced to research the matter more than I would have liked. However, in doing so I have stumbled upon some interesting resources & information.

                          First, a good resource for anyone researching case law, Bali is the place to go: http://http://www.bailii.org
                          If anyone is going to court, it is invaluable, and I kindly ask those who do go to court that they supply a transcript of their case to Bali so we can all make use of it. Thanks in advance.

                          Information which you may find interesting is the case of Rev Regina Nicholson -v- Tottenham Magistrates Court 2015 EWHC 1252 (Haringey Council as Interested Party) dealing with the matter of "reasonable costs". Case transcript can be found here and is pure gold for anyone fighting he council over costs:
                          http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/...2015/1252.html

                          It is worth noting that the good Rev. Nicholson can easily be found by googling although he is apparently 84 years of age so it would be a good idea to be easy on the man.

                          While it may be difficult to navigate, the most important of all resources is http://www.legislation.gov.uk where you are able to download most (if not all) UK legislation free of charge, including the Local Government Finance Act 2012 (as amended) and the Council Tax (Administration & Enforcement) Regulations 1992 (as amended).

                          Finally, I have suggested in my last communication to Haringey Council that offering those paying by Direct Debit three different payment dates while offering no such thing to people not paying by direct debit may amount to discrimination under s. 23 of the Equality Act 2010 which states:

                          29 - Provision of services, etc.

                          (1) A person (a “service-provider”) concerned with the provision of a service to the public or a section of the public (for payment or not) must not discriminate against a person requiring the service by not providing the person with the service.
                          (2) A service-provider (A) must not, in providing the service, discriminate against a person (B)—
                          (a) as to the terms on which A provides the service to B;
                          (b) by terminating the provision of the service to B;
                          (c) by subjecting B to any other detriment.

                          Will update you on how that goes and if there is a showdown in court will keep you posted on that too.

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Re: council tax and council recovery charges

                            Originally posted by fantastico View Post

                            First, a good resource for anyone researching case law, Bali is the place to go: http://http://www.bailii.org
                            If anyone is going to court, it is invaluable, and I kindly ask those who do go to court that they supply a transcript of their case to Bali so we can all make use of it. Thanks in advance.
                            There are no transcripts of Council Tax hearings in the Magistrates' Courts. Nicolson was in the High Court, and he was awarded £30k costs for his Pro Bono QC. Not many would get a Pro Bono QC, or be able to afford to pay one. They know this, and it's how the scam continues.

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              Re: council tax and council recovery charges

                              Finally, I have suggested in my last communication to Haringey Council that offering those paying by Direct Debit three different payment dates while offering no such thing to people not paying by direct debit may amount to discrimination under s. 23 of the Equality Act 2010 which states:

                              29 - Provision of services, etc.
                              (1) A person (a “service-provider”) concerned with the provision of a service to the public or a section of the public (for payment or not) must not discriminate against a person requiring the service by not providing the person with the service.
                              (2) A service-provider (A) must not, in providing the service, discriminate against a person (B)—
                              (a) as to the terms on which A provides the service to B;
                              (b) by terminating the provision of the service to B;
                              (c) by subjecting B to any other detriment.
                              & correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the Equality Act is to do with protected characteristics.
                              CAVEAT LECTOR

                              This is only my opinion - "Opinions are made to be changed --or how is truth to be got at?" (Byron)

                              You and I do not see things as they are. We see things as we are.
                              Cohen, Herb


                              There is danger when a man throws his tongue into high gear before he
                              gets his brain a-going.
                              Phelps, C. C.


                              "They couldn't hit an elephant at this distance!"
                              The last words of John Sedgwick

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Re: council tax and council recovery charges

                                Also worth checking if they make a charge for paying by credit card. There was a cap on what could be charged that some councils exceeded, and from this month no charge is allowed. HMRC have decided not to accept credit card payments at all. What will councils do? http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-42579694
                                Previous directive limited charges to 0.3%: http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-conte...01.0001.01.ENG
                                Article 4:
                                Interchange fees for consumer credit card transactions
                                Payment service providers shall not offer or request a per transaction interchange fee of more than 0,3 % of the value of the transaction for any credit card transaction. For domestic credit card transactions Member States may define a lower per transaction interchange fee cap.
                                Last edited by Adamna; 7th January 2018, 03:37:AM. Reason: Additional information

                                Comment

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