disclosure on closed bank account & varied T&Cs

[Gorang]

Re: disclosure on closed bank account & varied T&Cs

last 3 pages of DCA cdefence and counter

2 DN from RBS

[Gorang]

Re: disclosure on closed bank account & varied T&Cs

RBS termination
RBS agreement
2 tesco DN's
Tesco termination

[Gorang]

Re: disclosure on closed bank account & varied T&Cs

And boxers defence to this claim

Boxer

What I really need is a copy of the POC (from the DCA) that you have defended

can you email a copy of that to me please

[Boxerdog8]

Re: disclosure on closed bank account & varied T&Cs

Hi, I have just e-mail you. The POC was mine, I issued to have the Default removed. Once I received the documents, I knew which accounts they were and that they were statute Barred. I discontinued. I wrote to the CRA to state that their was an error ignored of course! I have sent you the Defence and CounterClaim that is the main Cause of Action now. I had to scan the documents but you can enlarge, any problems let me know. Thank you again.

[Gorang]

Re: disclosure on closed bank account & varied T&Cs

so you submit a claim
they defend
they get awared costs even tho the claim was withdrawn

So has their counter claim been allowed to stand and that is what you are defending now? ?

[CleverClogs]

Re: disclosure on closed bank account & varied T&Cs

I will use this post as the time line post and edit as I know more

DCA takes over the account (don't know which DCA yet, but their company number is 02686796)

Equidebt Limited - link

Although their website - Welcome to Equidebt - fails to mention it, the company does hold a current Consumer Credit Licence, number 0334543, issued by the Office of Faffing and Twaddling.

I believe that Consumer Direct (0845 4 04 05 06) should be informed that this company seems to be trying to collect alleged debts that appear to be barred under section 5 - link - of the Limitation Act 1980.

[Gorang]

Re: disclosure on closed bank account & varied T&Cs

Thanks CC

Thats not a bad idea


BOXER

If I am right with my last post then we need to know this

have you checked your credit files with the CRA's

If you have then what dates does it show that these accounts were defaulted

2ndly have you got all of your bank statements that shows when you last made a payment to these accounts? (ie the bank account that you would of paid these debts from)

EDIT

Boxer I have all the arguments covered and countered that they have in their counter claim but I need you to answer the questions in my last post and this one, before I can start putting them together

I will also need to see the court order from thursday when it comes in the post,

There is a lot of work to do but you CAN stuff them good and proper

I know you are worried about them seeing your thread but i can assure you that you have a VERY VERY strong case to get this put to bed once and for all

[Boxerdog8]

Re: disclosure on closed bank account & varied T&Cs

Good Morning,
thank you all again for your time. It is Equidebt. I do wish I never issued the Claim but Equidebt would not tell me which accounts they were. The Default has fallen off, I do have a record of them putting it on a year later. It is their Defence and CounterClaim I am defending.
I do not have my bank accounts going back to spring 2005. I had an operation and I would sometimes go into a bank and pay cash but as it was over seven years ago I can not remember which bank and how much this is a guess at best. Their Credit Card Bank Statements have just been printed off, the APR is 0% and one set has a different RBS logo. The purged memos stated a switch payment but not the amount or how much. In the Limations Act it states the acknowledgement of debt must be in writing so the memos would be hear say via phone. I want to use other arguments IEA, etc. Ooh sorry I must take my young son to nursery.........I will post later............The idea of really getting this thrown out would make my day, year!

[Gorang]

Re: disclosure on closed bank account & varied T&Cs

I have just spoke to boxer on the phone and cleared up a few things

Boxer submitted a claim against DCA (she is getting a copy of her POC to me as there is para's in there that the counter refers to which don't make comlete sense at the mo)

The DCA solicitor that has been dealing with this is wakeman's

Boxer withdraws claim

DCA defends and counters late (after the claim is withdrawn) and judge ALLOWS the counter (duno if we can use this to our advantage to get everything thrown OUT or not)

DCA saying payments have been made

RBS and Tesco confirm last payments made (over 6 yrs ago now but under the 6 yrs when the the original claim was submitted)

Altho boxer is unsure if she made a payment to triton for one of the accounts (SDAR need here to triton I think)

DCA now saying the claim is NOT statue barred as boxers claim was made BEFORE the 6yrs were up which keeps the debts inside the limitations period until judgement has been made about the whole case (this is the time stopped running that boxer refered to so need to find out more about this)

DCA contradicts them selves in their defence and counter by saying they have reconstructed the DN's then they say they have copies

DCA also mantain they have memo's about payments (boxer is going to forward these to me also)

Both RBS and Tesco have stated in writing they did NOT retain copies of the DN's

Boxer has a print out of her credit files showing when the accounts were actually defaulted (2005 not 2004 as DCA maintains) (the defaults do NOT show on her credit file now)

DCA reconstructed copies of the DN's are a year and a bit out but DCA are trying to say it is just typo's

Boxer is going to try and get a copy of the court order from last week and forward that to me so we can see what the judge wants

I have also asked boxer to forward to me a copy of all correspondence that the DCA solicitor has sent her since the counter went in, as I think this could show harrassment


Boxer, what we need now is

1,Your initial POC that you submitted
2, Did you send a SAR to trition, if not send one NOW
3, The memo's
4, The actual date's that showed on your credit file of when you was defaulted for both accounts
5, Copy of the court order
6, Copies of letters sent to you by the DCA or their solicitor since the counter claim was put in

7, The exact date you submitted your claim
8, The exact date you withdrew your claim
9, The exact date the DCA submitted their defence and counter claim

just email the docs to me if you wish and I can post up the ones we will need

[Boxerdog8]

Re: disclosure on closed bank account & varied T&Cs

Hi, I have sent some of the documents. The POC I will send once I have gone to the Court. The Default on 2004 on both accounts is correct, the DCA listed one account a year later in 2005, hence my Claim. The letters will take some time as there are many...........I will try and send through what I can by tomorrow and thank you.

[teaboy2]

Re: disclosure on closed bank account & varied T&Cs

Just6 having a quick look in so haven't actually looked at any of the documents posted up. I have replied to yor PM though Gorang and can look into what we discussed in the PM's at the weekend.

Anyway below in red are my brief thoughts on what you put in your last post here.

I have just spoke to boxer on the phone and cleared up a few things

Boxer submitted a claim against DCA (she is getting a copy of her POC to me as there is para's in there that the counter refers to which don't make comlete sense at the mo)

The DCA solicitor that has been dealing with this is wakeman's

Boxer withdraws claim

DCA defends and counters late (after the claim is withdrawn) and judge ALLOWS the counter (duno if we can use this to our advantage to get everything thrown OUT or not) - The counter claim would be treated as a separate claim if the if the original claiment withdraw theirs. In other words the defendants counter claim is not withdraw just because the original claiment has withdrawn there claim. If it was it would be prejudice to the defendant. though off course the counter claim can only be allowed if there is a reasonable chance it will succed. So it will be interesting to see what the counter claim was.

DCA saying payments have been made - Strict them to proof N268 under CPR32.19 as discussed earlier in the thread

RBS and Tesco confirm last payments made (over 6 yrs ago now but under the 6 yrs when the the original claim was submitted) - So the clock stops whilst the claim is still in court. But once original claim is concluded in court and judgement past the clock continues to tick again. So was the time between the original claim and that of the DCA claim against boxer enough to take it over the 6 year limit? I.e. if there was a 4 month brak between the 2 court cases, then you add that 4 months to the total time that has past since last payment and the start of the first court case.

Altho boxer is unsure if she made a payment to triton for one of the accounts (SDAR need here to triton I think) - They will likely only bring up statements that triton are already relying on as proof of payment, which is why we need them to strict proof in reagrds to those statements that say payments were made.

DCA now saying the claim is NOT statue barred as boxers claim was made BEFORE the 6yrs were up which keeps the debts inside the limitations period until judgement has been made about the whole case (this is the time stopped running that boxer refered to so need to find out more about this) - But the DCA claim is a new claim and not part of the original case. their are 2 separate cases, so as per above the time between judgement in the original case and the DCA issuing there claim also counts towards the 6 year time limit.

DCA contradicts them selves in their defence and counter by saying they have reconstructed the DN's then they say they have copies - Strict them to proof the DN are true copies of the original, given the OC admits to not having retained copies of the original DN's then they can not possibly proof they are true copies of the original DN sent to Boxer, also strict the to proof that Such DN were received by boxer as only way to do that is if the DN were sent recorded delivery and signed for on receipt.

DCA also mantain they have memo's about payments (boxer is going to forward these to me also) - Internal memos are just that, internal memos. They are not evidence of any payment being made or by whom, just evidence of payments being discussed but not evidence of whom it was discussed with or by which means of communications. Are they actually connected to the accounts in question?

Both RBS and Tesco have stated in writing they did NOT retain copies of the DN's - GOOD

Boxer has a print out of her credit files showing when the accounts were actually defaulted (2005 not 2004 as DCA maintains) (the defaults do NOT show on her credit file now) - then the default was other 6 years ago then, therefore evidence that the last payment was over 6 years ago, though if the actually default was in 2004 and not placed on her file to a year later then that is evidence that the last payment was 7 years ago even before boxer made the claim in court. What are the dates on the DN that the DCA claim to have, are the 2004 or 2005? What date do the OC's claim boxer defaulted on the account?

DCA reconstructed copies of the DN's are a year and a bit out but DCA are trying to say it is just typo's - Typo of not, it needs to be accurate and in prescribed form if it is to be valid. As i said we simply strict them to proof they are true copies of the originals and they were received by boxer. What their are saying is they sent it in say 2004 and dated it 2005 giving her 14 days to remedy from the date of the DN or before the data of xx/xx/2005 when it should have been 2004 or something like that, am i right lol

Boxer is going to try and get a copy of the court order from last week and forward that to me so we can see what the judge wants - ok

I have also asked boxer to forward to me a copy of all correspondence that the DCA solicitor has sent her since the counter went in, as I think this could show harrassment - Now that would be interesting


Boxer, what we need now is

1,Your initial POC that you submitted
2, Did you send a SAR to trition, if not send one NOW
3, The memo's
4, The actual date's that showed on your credit file of when you was defaulted for both accounts
5, Copy of the court order
6, Copies of letters sent to you by the DCA or their solicitor since the counter claim was put in

7, The exact date you submitted your claim
8, The exact date you withdrew your claim
9, The exact date the DCA submitted their defence and counter claim

just email the docs to me if you wish and I can post up the ones we will need

I apologise if anything i have missed anything, as i said i have not had time to look through any of the documents posted above. And it will be the weekend before i can look in much more detail.

[Boxerdog8]

Re: disclosure on closed bank account & varied T&Cs

Hi, Thank you Teaboy.......I am going to the Court today to get copies of the POC. I think Gorang the reference to the CounterClaim is reapeating their own Defence (first part) as the POC is about Default Notice.
Awake at 4.00am! I was thinking.................
The CounterCLaim was issued in July I will check the Court stamp but it was between 14-29th. I withdrew on the 13th. So we are looking at six years prior to 29th July 2010. I did not have to pay costs and the otherside had not filed the Defence but the Judge went on to grant this after I appeal a different Judge decision, so two different Judges looked at this and I think it will stand.

I thought a judgement had to be obtained I did not unsderstand "time stops running".

The Judge will accept memos as proof of DN sent and the memos support this on both accounts. I think CPR rules state documents are served if sent via post. The DCA filed the Default Notice late, but as it has fallen off I not sure if this helps? The DCA did not issue the DN the OC did.

I have to sort out the disclosure issues, which the Judge is ordering me to send the same documents again! I have to correctly fill out the N265 form. I am not clear on why he did not accept anything in my WS? because I was not their in person?


While the Memos state originals T&C sent the copies filed and I have re looked at them do state copy. The application form of RBS (can someone check this, fresh eyes) has been altered blacked out on top and no APR. Tesco looks correct. There a date on the bottom of Tesco T&C's(2001) but no personal details on it but the DCA will state it is one document. This looks very hard to me, so if you could run your eyes over it and let me know if both T&C's are IEA I would be very grateful.
I do beleive and knowing the Judge I have, it will take more than a small error to strike this Claim out.
I am also worred that the memo's and the reconstructed credit card statments will support the time barred issue, there was an error in both sets of reconstructed credit card statments which both banks accept, but the memos are hard to show they are not accurate.
I know how busy you all are but if you could run your eyes over the T&C's and see any large errors.
I need to send the N268? form any idea what to put I ask as I made errors in the N265 which has caused a great deal of stress!
Thank you again. Boxerdog.

[teaboy2]

Re: disclosure on closed bank account & varied T&Cs

Hi, Thank you Teaboy.......I am going to the Court today to get copies of the POC. I think Gorang the reference to the CounterClaim is reapeating their own Defence (first part) as the POC is about Default Notice.
Awake at 4.00am! I was thinking.................
The CounterCLaim was issued in July I will check the Court stamp but it was between 14-29th. I withdrew on the 13th. So we are looking at six years prior to 29th July 2010. I did not have to pay costs and the otherside had not filed the Defence but the Judge went on to grant this after I appeal a different Judge decision, so two different Judges looked at this and I think it will stand.

I thought a judgement had to be obtained I did not unsderstand "time stops running".

The Judge will accept memos as proof of DN sent and the memos support this on both accounts. I think CPR rules state documents are served if sent via post. The DCA filed the Default Notice late, but as it has fallen off I not sure if this helps? The DCA did not issue the DN the OC did.

I have to sort out the disclosure issues, which the Judge is ordering me to send the same documents again! I have to correctly fill out the N265 form. I am not clear on why he did not accept anything in my WS? because I was not their in person?


While the Memos state originals T&C sent the copies filed and I have re looked at them do state copy. The application form of RBS (can someone check this, fresh eyes) has been altered blacked out on top and no APR. Tesco looks correct. There a date on the bottom of Tesco T&C's(2001) but no personal details on it but the DCA will state it is one document. This looks very hard to me, so if you could run your eyes over it and let me know if both T&C's are IEA I would be very grateful.
I do beleive and knowing the Judge I have, it will take more than a small error to strike this Claim out.
I am also worred that the memo's and the reconstructed credit card statments will support the time barred issue, there was an error in both sets of reconstructed credit card statments which both banks accept, but the memos are hard to show they are not accurate.
I know how busy you all are but if you could run your eyes over the T&C's and see any large errors.
I need to send the N268? form any idea what to put I ask as I made errors in the N265 which has caused a great deal of stress!
Thank you again. Boxerdog.

Hi Boxer, i will be looking into this in detail at the weekend with and the hopefully me and Gorang can come up with a solid defence and get this struck out. The N268 under cpr32.19 will be the likely route. Though assuming the Default has dropped of your file then and they can not prove you made any payments or acknowlegement of the debt between the date the default was placed on your file and it dropping off, then it is statuted barred, it is for them to prove otherwise.

Also if their is no APR on the RBS agreement then it is an unenforceable agreement as it would not be in perscribed form. as for the T & C's they would have to prove there were part of the same document, it is not enough to just say that they were. There needs to be a clear connecting connecting the terms to the agreement.

[Gorang]

Re: disclosure on closed bank account & varied T&Cs

DCA defends and counters late (after the claim is withdrawn) and judge ALLOWS the counter (duno if we can use this to our advantage to get everything thrown OUT or not) - The counter claim would be treated as a separate claim if the if the original claiment withdraw theirs. In other words the defendants counter claim is not withdraw just because the original claiment has withdrawn there claim. If it was it would be prejudice to the defendant. though off course the counter claim can only be allowed if there is a reasonable chance it will succed. So it will be interesting to see what the counter claim was.

My think with this was

poc submitted
poc then withdrawn
Defence then submitted
so my thinking defence is not now worth the paper it is written on as the pOC was withdrawn

so counter claim now is NOT a counter claim it now is a POC which to my way of thinking has NO relevance to the original POC

therefor as the POC was withdrawn then the defence and counter went in then as they were both late then the counter should also be thrown out, and if the defendant then wants to make a claim then they should have to do exactly that and make a new claim with a POC, to date they have NOT done this

But I suppose it will depend on if the defence and counter claim was submitted just before the POC was withdrawn, if it was then yes I can see why it still stands

Boxer is there any chance you can give us the exact dates of submission of the
POC
defence and counter claim
and the exact date you withdrew the POC

as if the defence date is in the middle of you submitting then withdrawing you POC then there is no point i looking at this as it will stand as TB2 has said, but if the defence and counter claim went in AFTER you withdrew then I think it is worth looking at this a bit more


TB2 as per your pm I get get this done later today

EDIT

TB2 incoming emails done

[teaboy2]

Re: disclosure on closed bank account & varied T&Cs

My think with this was

poc submitted
poc then withdrawn
Defence then submitted
so my thinking defence is not now worth the paper it is written on as the pOC was withdrawn

so counter claim now is NOT a counter claim it now is a POC which to my way of thinking has NO relevance to the original POC

therefor as the POC was withdrawn then the defence and counter went in then as they were both late then the counter should also be thrown out, and if the defendant then wants to make a claim then they should have to do exactly that and make a new claim with a POC, to date they have NOT done this

But I suppose it will depend on if the defence and counter claim was submitted just before the POC was withdrawn, if it was then yes I can see why it still stands

Boxer is there any chance you can give us the exact dates of submission of the
POC
defence and counter claim
and the exact date you withdrew the POC

as if the defence date is in the middle of you submitting then withdrawing you POC then there is no point i looking at this as it will stand as TB2 has said, but if the defence and counter claim went in AFTER you withdrew then I think it is worth looking at this a bit more


TB2 as per your pm I get get this done later today

Yes if the claim was withdrawn and notice of discontinaunce was given prior to the counter claim being submitted (don't think the defence being submitted or not is relevant unless submitted together with counter claim), then it should not have gone ahead as the claimant had discontinued therefore no claim existed anymore. And such counter claim should have been a new claim submitted as POC and not a counter claim to what would ineffect be a non existent claim when withdrawn.

So yes it would depend on the timing of when they submitted the counter claim and when the original claim was withdrawn and whether a notice of discontinaunce was sent.