Natwest Bank - Charging Order

[Mightyacorn]

Okay, story so far:-

Business account with NatWest Bank, authorised overdraft with NatWest Overdraft Protection Insurance.

Business fails, write to Natwest in May 2008 explaining situation and am therefore unable to pay off overdraft (circa £10k). Nothing heard from NatWest at all, not even a statement until Irwin Mitchell Sols, start sending threatening letters for debt now just under £15K. Write to IM telling them "Yes, I had an account with NatWest, thought I was covered by their overdraft insurance, but just in case I aren't please accept £20 per month as per income/expediture". In meantime I SAR NatWEst, making particular reference to overdraft insurance. IM write back, "Not listening, need at least £200 per month to avoid further action", I write back, "Don't be silly, have a look at my I/E, you'll see I have other priority debts including CCJ's", IM write back, "Still not listening"
SAR reply arrives from NatWest, containing just a one page diary of events for the last 2 years, no statements, no insurance documents, nothing. Write back to NatWest repeating SAR reuest.
County Court Claim arrives, I submit AofS and CPR IM, deadline for defence approaches, no reply from IM so submit embarrassed defence.
Letter from NateWEst, pointing out that they replied to my SAR earlier, but just in case I hadn't recieved it here it is again......same document as before and nothing else.

Contacted Court who inform me that my defence has been received and forwarded to IM, but seeing as IM have not responded Case Stayed.

Now I need to know where I go from here.

Court :- Do I leave it as it is? I understand that to reinstate, NatWest/IM need to give Court good reasons to do so, and that I have to be informed should they wish to do so, or do I apply for a strike out? if so do I use N224? and if I apply for a strike out can NatWest/IM make another claim?

NatWest:- Do I persue the SAR request, or am I shooting myself in the foot? and why haven't they sent me anything other than a one page diary of events?

Any assistance much appreciated.

MA

[Amethyst]

Re: Natwest Bank - Charging Order

Nice concise summary of the case, thanks MA xx

Irwin Mitchell have a bit of a history of just ignoring things when they get a bit tricky. Sometimes NW send it over to Shoosmiths to try it on with a joint account holder.

Court - Its not nice, nor satisfactory, having it just hanging over you ready to jump back up at any time, but then applying for a strike might chivvy them into further action. Depends what way you want to play it really. Is it stayed indeterminetly or is there strike date?

NW - What kind of business account ? SARs arent applicable for business accounts although they would be for sole traders. Theres some guidance on the ICO site about that I believe.

You have copies of all letters, you made an offer which they refused/ignored - those letters will be in your favour if anything does start up again.



I'll see if I can find another thread where IM sat on a claim for ages remind what happened - NickyJ I think.......so be back soon

[Amethyst]

Re: Natwest Bank - Charging Order

Sorry MA, where's the charging order (in the title) come into the story ? (I have a wee headache so might have just missed it in your post)


Nicky's thread is Nickij v Natwest/Irwin Mitchell - Legal Beagles Consumer Forum - IM failed to reply to the defence/offer to pay so it got stayed. 4 months later they applied to lift stay...was another simply frustrating case where Nicky just wanted to pay the darn debt at a sensible amount without all the hassle. They ended up agreeing a tomlin with NW to hold the court action while they made payments through payplan, so IM can pick it up again if they default. Don't think its a great deal of help but gives you an idea that its a bit common for IM to do this kind of thing.

[Mightyacorn]

Re: Natwest Bank - Charging Order

Amethyst, charging order came with letter from IM, :-

http://i461.photobucket.com/albums/q...eyJudgment.jpg

I am a sole trader, so I'll have to have a read of ICO guidance, I wasn';t aware that business accounts were different. The thing is I've had nothing at all from NatWest until letter from IM some two years after I wrote regarding my circumstances, surely the need to send statements at least?


All paperwork received:-


http://i461.photobucket.com/albums/q...roceedings.jpg

http://i461.photobucket.com/albums/q...condletter.jpg

http://i461.photobucket.com/albums/q...d29thApril.jpg

http://i461.photobucket.com/albums/q...er00010002.jpg

http://i461.photobucket.com/albums/q...eyJudgment.jpg

http://i461.photobucket.com/albums/q...NatWestSAR.jpg

http://i461.photobucket.com/albums/q...hirdletter.jpg

http://i461.photobucket.com/albums/q...yCourt0001.jpg

[Mightyacorn]

Re: Natwest Bank - Charging Order

Section 2.2.1 on page 11 refers to sole trader:-

http://www.ico.gov.uk/upload/documen...l_guidance.pdf

2.2.1 What determines whether data relate to an individual?
Potentially, this aspect of the definition could be construed very widely. In the Commissioner’s view, whether or not data relate to a particular individual will be a question of fact in each particular case. One element to be taken into account would be whether a data controller can form a connection between the data and the individual.
Data do not have to relate solely to one individual and the same set of data may relate to two or more people and still be personal data about each of them. For example, joint tenants of a property or holders of a joint bank account or even individuals who use the same telephone or e-mail address.
Information may relate to an individual in a business capacity and not just to their private life. Information about the business of a sole trader will amount to personal data as information about the business will be about the sole trader. Information about an individual in a partnership will be personal data if it relates to a specific partner.
This will be more likely in a small partnership.
Although the Act refers to individuals and not other legal entities such as limited companies, there will be situations where information about a limited company or other legal entity amounts to personal data because it relates to a specific individual, for
example, the performance of a department which is under the control of a specific individual. Information relating solely to the legal entity will not be personal data.

[Mightyacorn]

Re: Natwest Bank - Charging Order

Anyone ?

[Mightyacorn]

Re: Natwest Bank - Charging Order

Could someone please explain the implications as to the two scenarios:-

a) I just ignore the fact that the Claim has been made, and IM have not replied to my Embarassed Defence, and do nothing about it - I am aware that they can resurrect it at any time but need permission of the Court to do so. (I am also given to understand that permission is very likely, indeed certain to be given) - do I leave it and hope they forget?

b) I apply for a strike out - can they then lay a fresh claim or are they barred from doing so?

[Amethyst]

Re: Natwest Bank - Charging Order

Hi Acorn, sorry I missed your previous postings xx am having a look at the attachments now.

[Amethyst]

Re: Natwest Bank - Charging Order

Okay good, so Natwest/IM don't have money judgment as yet and have not applied for a charging order (cause they cann't till they have judgment)

You made an offer to pay of £20 a month. Have you retained copies of your letters offering repayment plans ? Did the amounts offered tally with your Income Expenditure sheets at the time ?

They have noted on the SAR that they wanted £275 a month under which action would be taken, well more fool them really.

After they declined your £20 a month offer, did you make those payments ?

Your embarassed defence - what is that on the basis of , the lack of response to the SAR requests ?

It will remain on stay until IM respond to the defence. As you can see from Nicki's thread they seem to go quiet then jump back into action randomly, so can completely understand you wanting to get it sorted now.

If you have letters offering repayments and IE sheets that show that is reasonable, and refusals from IM, and have been paying the amount offered (if not then I'd begin) then the judge may not do anything other than order installments at that rate to continue, and allow application for charging order if you miss payments. IM will argue that it would take 19 years to pay off etc. It really depends on the judge you get at the time if he allows them to apply for CO or not.

[Amethyst]

Re: Natwest Bank - Charging Order

oh and DPA for sole trader should be okay - you are asking for informaton regarding you though, not regarding the business, but yes transaction lists should be included to show how the debt on the overdraft has built up.

As the claim is over £5k you are quite entitled to ask for these under a part 18 request, and ask the court to order disclosure of these.

[Mightyacorn]

Re: Natwest Bank - Charging Order

Okay good, so Natwest/IM don't have money judgment as yet and have not applied for a charging order (cause they cann't till they have judgment)

You made an offer to pay of £20 a month. Have you retained copies of your letters offering repayment plans ? Did the amounts offered tally with your Income Expenditure sheets at the time ?

They have noted on the SAR that they wanted £275 a month under which action would be taken, well more fool them really.

After they declined your £20 a month offer, did you make those payments ?

Your embarassed defence - what is that on the basis of , the lack of response to the SAR requests ?

It will remain on stay until IM respond to the defence. As you can see from Nicki's thread they seem to go quiet then jump back into action randomly, so can completely understand you wanting to get it sorted now.

If you have letters offering repayments and IE sheets that show that is reasonable, and refusals from IM, and have been paying the amount offered (if not then I'd begin) then the judge may not do anything other than order installments at that rate to continue, and allow application for charging order if you miss payments. IM will argue that it would take 19 years to pay off etc. It really depends on the judge you get at the time if he allows them to apply for CO or not.

Yes,
I have copies of all letters, tho' I must admit I haven't started paying yet as I've other bigger problems, my business ( a Public House) is in the process of being repossessed, so there won't be anything for them to get a legal charge on, and my offer of £20 per month could well be reduced when the Mortgage Company ask me for the £190,000 outstanding mortgage.

[Amethyst]

Re: Natwest Bank - Charging Order

Okay so if the reposession goes through there will be nothing to get a charge on and all they could conceivably do is get a CCJ and installment order, or try and make you bankrupt, which I assume is something you have considered with the outstanding mortgage left after reposession ?

Do you have your own home as well or just the pub ?

[Mightyacorn]

Re: Natwest Bank - Charging Order

Okay so if the reposession goes through there will be nothing to get a charge on and all they could conceivably do is get a CCJ and installment order, or try and make you bankrupt, which I assume is something you have considered with the outstanding mortgage left after reposession ?

Do you have your own home as well or just the pub ?

Have PM'd you

[Amethyst]

Re: Natwest Bank - Charging Order

Thanks