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  1. #1
    davoid23's Avatar

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    Question SmartParking @ Fistral Beach Newquay

    Hi all,

    Having read some of the posts around here (gee whiz some of you guys know your stuff! ) I think I understand things, but I'm still looking for a quick tip.

    My situation is the same as in the post here (PCN through the door a week later, no ticket on windscreen issued. Drove in, never exited the vehicle, decided we didn't want to stay as charges were excessive and nothing to do there, re-programmed satnav to take us elsewhere and left the car park.) The total time between images at the entrance/exit of the car park (including a long drive down from and back up to the entrance/exit where the camera is) was 18m 45s.

    My question is: Would I be better served using the Blue template in the "Newbies!" sticky, the proven winning template (on this occasion, at least) from the identical incident, or some combination of the two?

    Any suggestions greatly appreciated & thanks for your time!

    D.

  2. #2
    charitynjw's Avatar

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    Default Re: SmartParking @ Fistral Beach Newquay

    Hi & welcome to LB.

    Are you at the 'appeal to parking co' stage?
    Could you post up the Notice to Keeper? (Front & rear, obscure personal details but leave all dates visible).
    Where do you live? (E/W/S/N.I.)
    Is the vehicle lease/HP?

    Do not ID the driver....refer to 'the driver' or 'the registered keeper' where necessary.
    CAVEAT LECTOR

    This is only my opinion - "
    Opinions are made to be changed --or how is truth to be got at?" (Byron)

    You and I do not see things as they are. We see things as we are.
    Cohen, Herb

    There is danger when a man throws his tongue into high gear before he
    gets his brain a-going.
    Phelps, C. C.

    "They couldn't hit an elephant at this distance!"
    The last words of John Sedgwick

  3. #3
    davoid23's Avatar

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    Default Re: SmartParking @ Fistral Beach Newquay

    Hi charitynjw,
    Thanks for your quick reply

    I received the initial letter from SmartParking yesterday 12/10/17, dated 10/10/17, issued 09/10/17 regarding 03/10/17 (so many dates!). This is the only contact between us (SmartParking and me, the registered keeper) at this time, I have not yet responded.

    I reside in England (unfortunately not Scotland, in this instance!) and am the owner/registered keeper of the vehicle.

    Here are images of the notice (I hope that's what you meant!)[IMG][/IMG]

    [IMG][/IMG]
    Last edited by davoid23; 13th October 2017 at 09:52:AM. Reason: Additional Info' & spelling/grammar corrections.

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    charitynjw's Avatar

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    Default Re: SmartParking @ Fistral Beach Newquay

    Yep, that's it.

    I'll have a read of that.
    You can have a read of this - http://nebula.wsimg.com/c289944f81b4...&alloworigin=1

    Esp the last 3 paragraphs.
    CAVEAT LECTOR

    This is only my opinion - "
    Opinions are made to be changed --or how is truth to be got at?" (Byron)

    You and I do not see things as they are. We see things as we are.
    Cohen, Herb

    There is danger when a man throws his tongue into high gear before he
    gets his brain a-going.
    Phelps, C. C.

    "They couldn't hit an elephant at this distance!"
    The last words of John Sedgwick

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    ostell's Avatar

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    Default Re: SmartParking @ Fistral Beach Newquay

    That PCN does not comply with the requirements of POFA to hold the keeper liable.. Section 9 (2) (f) is missing.. There may be other defects.

    So it's a simple letter form the keeper saying that the NTK is deficient and therefore no liability can be transferred from the driver to the keeper. The keeper does not expect to hear from SMART again except for confirmation that there will be no further action and the keepers personal details will be removed from their records as there is not liability.

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    davoid23's Avatar

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    Default Re: SmartParking @ Fistral Beach Newquay

    That seems like a fair trade, thanks

    I've read through it and (the bits that made sense to me) do seem similar in both cases, especially, as you say, the last few paragraphs. Would it be wise to reference this case as evidence in my initial appeal?

    D.

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    davoid23's Avatar

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    Default Re: SmartParking @ Fistral Beach Newquay

    ostell, Hi, thanks for helping

    Are you referring to the lack of the statement that they have not warned me, as the keeper,"
    that if, after the period of 28 days beginning with the day after that on which the notice is given —(i)the amount of the unpaid parking charges specified under paragraph (d) has not been paid in full, and
    (ii)the creditor does not know both the name of the driver and a current address for service for the driver"
    So specifically the high-lighted text as they have not informed me that they do not know the details of the driver and have only written to me as the registered keeper?
    If so, again, is it wise to throw this in as evidence in the appeal, too? The more you throw, the more likely something will stick, kind of thing?


    Thanks,

    D,

  8. #8
    charitynjw's Avatar

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    Default Re: SmartParking @ Fistral Beach Newquay

    I agree with @ostell.
    At this stage just send a 'defective Notice to Keeper' letter & ask them to either cancel or send a POPLA code.
    CAVEAT LECTOR

    This is only my opinion - "
    Opinions are made to be changed --or how is truth to be got at?" (Byron)

    You and I do not see things as they are. We see things as we are.
    Cohen, Herb

    There is danger when a man throws his tongue into high gear before he
    gets his brain a-going.
    Phelps, C. C.

    "They couldn't hit an elephant at this distance!"
    The last words of John Sedgwick

  9. #9
    davoid23's Avatar

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    Post Re: SmartParking @ Fistral Beach Newquay

    Quote Originally Posted by charitynjw View Post
    I agree with @ostell.
    At this stage just send a 'defective Notice to Keeper' letter & ask them to either cancel or send a POPLA code.
    My apologies, but I cannot find a letter template with that title. Can you advise if the below draft is suitable?

    Also, is it worth adding in the pieces of legislation or referring to previous cases in this initial appeal, or should I wait until a second appeal with the POPLA code to include those additional pieces of information?

    Draft for your approval:

    Dear Sirs,

    I am writing as the registered keeper of vehicle *insert VRN* to appeal Parking Charge Notice *Insert PCN Reference No.* dated 10/10/2017.

    I find that the above stated PCN is defective, insomuch as it is not fully compliant with the guidelines set out in POFA therefore no liability can be transferred from the driver to the keeper and I am asking that the PCN be cancelled. I would add that I, as the registered keeper, do not expect to hear from Smart Parking again regarding this matter, except for confirmation that there will be no further action and that my personal details as the keeper of the vehicle will be removed from your records, as there is no liability.

    Should this cancellation be refused, I will require a POPLA code from yourselves to further appeal your illegitimate claim.

    Kind regards,

    *Insert my name*

  10. #10
    ostell's Avatar

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    Default Re: SmartParking @ Fistral Beach Newquay

    Don't ask that the PCN is cancelled, DEMAND.

    Smart tend to be sensible and cancel when it looks as though they will have to do a lot of work.

  11. #11
    davoid23's Avatar

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    Default Re: SmartParking @ Fistral Beach Newquay

    Quote Originally Posted by ostell View Post
    Don't ask that the PCN is cancelled, DEMAND.

    Smart tend to be sensible and cancel when it looks as though they will have to do a lot of work.
    I actually wrote "demand" initially but thought I'd appeal to their human side. What was I thinking?! Haha!

    Other than that change, the draft above is sufficient in the first instance as the initial appeal via their website, as best as you could say? (I appreciate there are no guarantees either way.)

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    ostell's Avatar

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    Default Re: SmartParking @ Fistral Beach Newquay

    The problem with appealing on their website is that you have no record of it and can't show you actually appealed. I would write and get free proof of posting from a Post Office.

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    davoid23's Avatar

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    Default Re: SmartParking @ Fistral Beach Newquay

    I could email an identical copy to info@smartparking.com which is listed in their website as for "Parking Charge Enquiries"? It does state "Appeals for PCNs cannot be lodged using the info@ email facility" but I could always use it to confirm their receipt of an appeal form.

    I'm a worrier so I'm keen to resolve it sooner than I believe "snail-mail" would allow. I could always do all three methods - Use the online form & screenshot the page before and after, email the listed address and send a recorded paper copy. Any thoughts?

    Thanks again for all your advice, by the way! Thanks again to charitynjw, too

  14. #14
    ostell's Avatar

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    Default Re: SmartParking @ Fistral Beach Newquay

    NOT recorded, simple proof of postage. Recorded the can simply refuse.

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    davoid23's Avatar

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    Default Re: SmartParking @ Fistral Beach Newquay

    Right you are then. I'll send that off and let you know how I get on.

    Should I refer to precisely which POFA guideline is missing or is that being too specific?

    EDIT: There is a page after the letter writing page to add supporting documentation. Should I use this as an opportunity to add references to the specific sub-sections of POFA or of the cases mentioned earlier in this thread, should I add the images I uploaded earlier so that they can assess the form or shall I just send the letter on its own?

  16. #16
    davoid23's Avatar

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    Default Re: SmartParking @ Fistral Beach Newquay

    Quote Originally Posted by davoid23 View Post
    ostell, Hi, thanks for helping

    Are you referring to the lack of the statement that they have not warned me, as the keeper,"
    that if, after the period of 28 days beginning with the day after that on which the notice is given —(i)the amount of the unpaid parking charges specified under paragraph (d) has not been paid in full, and
    (ii)the creditor does not know both the name of the driver and a current address for service for the driver"
    So specifically the high-lighted text as they have not informed me that they do not know the details of the driver and have only written to me as the registered keeper?
    If so, again, is it wise to throw this in as evidence in the appeal, too? The more you throw, the more likely something will stick, kind of thing?


    Thanks,

    D,
    Although it does state that i I'd like to supply the driver's details, I can.

  17. #17
    charitynjw's Avatar

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    Default Re: SmartParking @ Fistral Beach Newquay

    Do not ID the driver.
    You'll lose any defence via PoFA if you do.
    PoFA being Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4.
    CAVEAT LECTOR

    This is only my opinion - "
    Opinions are made to be changed --or how is truth to be got at?" (Byron)

    You and I do not see things as they are. We see things as we are.
    Cohen, Herb

    There is danger when a man throws his tongue into high gear before he
    gets his brain a-going.
    Phelps, C. C.

    "They couldn't hit an elephant at this distance!"
    The last words of John Sedgwick

  18. #18
    davoid23's Avatar

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    Default Re: SmartParking @ Fistral Beach Newquay

    Quote Originally Posted by charitynjw View Post
    Do not ID the driver.
    You'll lose any defence via PoFA if you do.
    PoFA being Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4.
    Hi charitynjw,

    I went with the following final response which I logged online, emailed and will be posting shortly, with proof of postage. Hopefully it's sufficient but if not, fear not, I shall be back to seek more wisdom! :-D

    Dear Sirs,

    I am writing as the registered keeper of vehicle ******* to appeal Parking Charge Notice ******** dated 10/10/2017.


    I find that the above stated PCN is defective, insomuch as it is not fully compliant with the guidelines set out in POFA, including, but not limited to, POFA 2012 Section 9, Sub-Section 2, therefore no liability can be transferred from the driver to the keeper and I demand that the PCN be cancelled. I add that I, as the registered keeper, do not expect to hear from Smart Parking again regarding this matter, except for confirmation that there will be no further action and that my personal details as the keeper of the vehicle will be removed from your records, as there is no liability.

    Should this cancellation be refused, I will require a POPLA code from yourselves to further appeal your illegitimate claim.

    Yours faithfully,

    D.

  19. #19
    charitynjw's Avatar

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    Default Re: SmartParking @ Fistral Beach Newquay

    Yep, fine.

    You could have added that you expect them to remove your details from their data base, but you can do that later if you want.
    See how sending this letter pans out.
    CAVEAT LECTOR

    This is only my opinion - "
    Opinions are made to be changed --or how is truth to be got at?" (Byron)

    You and I do not see things as they are. We see things as we are.
    Cohen, Herb

    There is danger when a man throws his tongue into high gear before he
    gets his brain a-going.
    Phelps, C. C.

    "They couldn't hit an elephant at this distance!"
    The last words of John Sedgwick

  20. #20
    davoid23's Avatar

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    Default Re: SmartParking @ Fistral Beach Newquay

    Hi all,

    Just a quick update - I have received an email from the "info@SmartParking" email address I contacted (alongside written and online appeals) which says:

    "Dear Sir/Madam,

    Thank you for your recent communication.

    We can confirm and appeal has been logged onto the system for you and it is in the process of being reviewed by our appeals team, once they have done so they will contact you via email or post. In the meantime the PCN has been frozen at the discounted amount until it has been reviewed and responded to by our appeals team. The appeals team have 35 days to review your appeal however we can confirm they are working on them at a much quicker time frame.

    Kind regards,

    Smart Parking Ltd
    (Contact details & Logo)
    "

    I'll let you all know how I get on from here.

  21. #21
    ostell's Avatar

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    Default Re: SmartParking @ Fistral Beach Newquay

    After 35 days and no response then you can assume, under BPA rules, that your appeal has been upheld.

    I forgot to comment earlier that POFA rules are not guidelines, they are requirements and must be met for the keeper to be held liable. Pedantic I know.

  22. #22
    davoid23's Avatar

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    Default Re: SmartParking @ Fistral Beach Newquay

    Quote Originally Posted by ostell View Post
    After 35 days and no response then you can assume, under BPA rules, that your appeal has been upheld.

    I forgot to comment earlier that POFA rules are not guidelines, they are requirements and must be met for the keeper to be held liable. Pedantic I know.
    1) That's mighty handy to know, thanks. It'll be an unbearable wait, I'm sure but hopefully a worthwhile one.

    2) I'd say pedantry is probably best way to deal with these people, it's all they seem to know! (Although the grammar in the email I got wasn't quite as particular as I'd expect.)

  23. #23
    ostell's Avatar

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    Default Re: SmartParking @ Fistral Beach Newquay

    So if you haven't heard from them after 35 days give it another week then write to them and tell them that as they haven't responded within the 35 days required by the BPA CoP then you are entitled to assume that your appeal has been accepted and you do not expect to hear from them again.

  24. #24
    charitynjw's Avatar

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    Default Re: SmartParking @ Fistral Beach Newquay

    (Although the grammar in the email I got wasn't quite as particular as I'd expect.)
    Private parking co's are not generally renowned for their literary prowess. (Although they could be considered on occasion for the Booker Fiction awards.......allegedly!)
    CAVEAT LECTOR

    This is only my opinion - "
    Opinions are made to be changed --or how is truth to be got at?" (Byron)

    You and I do not see things as they are. We see things as we are.
    Cohen, Herb

    There is danger when a man throws his tongue into high gear before he
    gets his brain a-going.
    Phelps, C. C.

    "They couldn't hit an elephant at this distance!"
    The last words of John Sedgwick

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