I need advice about a possible shared water supply with my neighbour.

[jonjonbb]

Hello
I might share a water supply pipe that enters my house, with a neighbour. I live in Wales. the pipes are original 1920s lead pipes.
I say might as there is no branch pipe to their house in my cellar, so the branch off would have to be under my dining room. their house unlike most in the street, has no external stopvalve in the pavement, and there is no water supply pipe in their cellar [ a tenant of the house and i investigated]
my deeds do not show that we have a shared water supply pipe.

i have asked the landlord and the water company to determine if they have their own supply pipe, and if they do not to make arrangement. the landlord stopped replying when i asked them about any progess in their investigations. i first alerted them to the shared-pipe possibility in late spring 2015.


i intend to replace my water pipes, and for it to feed only my house [if we are indeed on a shared pipe]. the water company is trying to avoid giving the neighbour a new supply, and is giving me guff that any potential neighbours water supply through my pipes is my responsibility


---
my question/s:
1. i have read that, if the shared supply is not mentioned on my deeds, that i have no legal duty to supply the neighbour with water thru my pipes. i need to quote the statute, or regulation number. what is this please?
2. when i replace my pipe and feed only my house. can the water company get a court order to force me to reattach the old water supply pipe?

3. more generally, how should i proceed
4. what type of solicitor do i consult to write any letters?


thanks
Jon

[des8]

Re: I need advice about a possible shared water supply with my neighbour.

Shared supply pipes aren't unusual.
The fact no easement is mentioned on the deeds is of no import as the right will now be there by prescription.
When you replace your pipe and disconnect your neighbour , expect your neighbour to get very cross!

You may not interfere with your neighbours supply in the manner you suggest.
If you want you could apply to Welsh Water to bring a separate supply pipe into your neighbours property.
This would have to be with your neighbours consent, Dwr Cymru's agreement and at your expense.
Before you go down that route look at Dwr Cymru's charges (https://www.dwrcymru.com/english/lib...es/English.pdf
and you need to complete an application form for a replacement water supply.
Here's a useful link? http://www.dwrcymru.com/en/Developer...ater-Main.aspx

[meellis]

Re: I need advice about a possible shared water supply with my neighbour.

I would really check to see who owns pipes and who has responsibility in this scenario. Supplying mains drinking water to a property has now been tightened up on water regulations and water supply companies are only supposed to deal with authorised personnel to make sure that the supply is installed as per regulations and standards they also might want to meter the supplies which can increase bills to smaller properties with multiple occupants. Usually the water companies are responsible for the supply up to the stop cock which is why they try to install them outside the boundary. I could forsee the water company being awkward about all this, and the landlord of the neighbouring property because they will all have to do work which they wont want to pay for so you could expect them to force you to adhere to every regulation and use approved contractors to carry out any works. I am not saying you shouldn't progress but you should really consider the reasoning before being lumbered with costs.

[des8]

Re: I need advice about a possible shared water supply with my neighbour.

A further observation: why would you object to being on a shared supply?
You'll never be disconnected for failing to pay your bill as they would also have to disconnect the neighbour!!

[Kati]

Re: I need advice about a possible shared water supply with my neighbour.

About 10yrs ago we lived in a flat next door to a shop ... the owners of the shop got a water meter put on their supply pipe (in our cellar) and we only then realized that the two properties shared a water supply. They were being charged for our usage as well as theirs :lol:

It took the water company three months to sort it out

[jonjonbb]

Re: I need advice about a possible shared water supply with my neighbour.

Yes Kati, Indeed it is craziness lolol

If anyone reading ever suspects that you have a shared supply never try to treat the neighbour as a reflection of yourself, as a sentient being of reason. expect only the standard human stupidity.
So never alert the neighbour, just quietly do your own thing

Online quotes say new water supply for neighbour is only £500 to 1000 [it would be a simple job, neighbour house only 3metres from mains]. So I don’t know what the halfwit neighbour is playing at. [he is a landlord after all, and the kitchen is beautiful and very modern]
Disappointed no one had property lawyer recommendations, case law, or had or knew of challenges to supposed easement and shared supply.
Ive found the solicitor database, and am still looking for property lawyers well versed in the case law about shared supplies, easements, and challenging them. I will ask them questions like:


1. i will check that easements can't be acquired by prescription if the owner incurs a cost [ my water bill, and the repairing my water supply pipe in 2015 was certainly a cost].

2. ive read that under prescription act, easement rights the access has to be without secrecy.

3. also that is it is for neighbour to prove there is a shared supply, is for them to prove that they have the right to access etc. there are no visible pipes to their property in my cellar
http://www.gardenlaw.co.uk/phpBB2/vi...7dbe9&start=45



4. i will check also that my reading of this is correct. that the absolute right for shared water use has not been granted [if we do indeed share a supply]
'The Prescription Act has certain requirements which stand alone from the other two methods. Section 4 of the Prescription Act 1832 states the relevant period in each case is that ‘next before action’. This requirement means that however long the period of ‘user as of right’, no absolute right is acquired until it is established in action [13] .

Read more at Law Teacher: http://www.lawteacher.net/free-law-e...#ixzz3u7XvLgDt'


I will consult two specialist lawyers opinions on the subject etc
I will report back what their guidance is, will take a couple of months [im busy]


Rrrrepeat, rewind. If anyone reading ever suspects that you have a shared supply never try to treat the neighbour as a reflection of yourself, as a sentient being of reason. expect only the standard human bovine stupidity.
So do not alert the neighbour, no matter how good your relations are with them. just quietly do your own thing.

[meellis]

Re: I need advice about a possible shared water supply with my neighbour.

Are you wanting to replace your main because it is lead? You haven't posted the reason for the change but there has to be a reason why you need to go to the expense of specialist lawyers and all the hassle. repairing your water pipe would have always been a cost to you and as for water bills unless you are on a meter both yours and your neighbours would be set on rates so I couldn't see any change apart from maybe up if you go on a meter.

[des8]

Re: I need advice about a possible shared water supply with my neighbour.

Yes Kati, Indeed it is craziness lolol

If anyone reading ever suspects that you have a shared supply never try to treat the neighbour as a reflection of yourself, as a sentient being of reason. expect only the standard human stupidity.
So never alert the neighbour, just quietly do your own thing

Online quotes say new water supply for neighbour is only £500 to 1000 [it would be a simple job (that's what my wife always says when she wants me to do something!)neighbour house only 3metres from mains]. So I don’t know what the halfwit neighbour is playing at. [he is a landlord after all, and the kitchen is beautiful and very modern](he is obviously unconcerned about a shared supply)
Disappointed no one had property lawyer recommendations (we rarely recommend commercial entities), case law, or had or knew of challenges to supposed easement and shared supply.
Ive found the solicitor database, and am still looking for property lawyers well versed in the case law about shared supplies, easements, and challenging them. I will ask them questions like:


1. i will check that easements can't be acquired by prescription if the owner incurs a cost [ my water bill [but your neighbour will be paying his own water rates], and the repairing my water supply pipe in 2015 was certainly a cost].
When did you become owner of the property? The easement will date back to the 1920's at least.
And re repair costs where the supply pipe is common or shared, "responsibility to maintain it is shared equally by all customers who receive water from this supply pipe"(http://www.dwrcymru.com/english/libr...nt/english.pdf) So why do you not ask your neighbour for his contribution to the repair costs?

2. ive read that under prescription act, easement rights the access has to be without secrecy.
I'm sure that when the easement was gained it was not secret. The owners of the respective properties would have been aware of the shared supply

3. also that is it is for neighbour to prove there is a shared supply, is for them to prove that they have the right to access etc. there are no visible pipes to their property in my cellar
http://www.gardenlaw.co.uk/phpBB2/vi...7dbe9&start=45
This is a discussion about an easement allowing a third party accessing a toilet on someone else's property, not just a shared water supply.


4. i will check also that my reading of this is correct. that the absolute right for shared water use has not been granted [if we do indeed share a supply]
'The Prescription Act has certain requirements which stand alone from the other two methods. Section 4 of the Prescription Act 1832 states the relevant period in each case is that ‘next before action’. This requirement means that however long the period of ‘user as of right’, no absolute right is acquired until it is established in action [13] and the water supply has been established for about 100 years?
I don't understand how you think section 4 helps your case:

before mentioned periods to be deemed those next before suits.Each of the respective periods of years herein-before mentioned shall be deemed and taken to be the period next before some suit or action wherein the claim or matter to which such period may relate shall have been or shall be brought into question and that no act or other matter shall be deemed to be an interruption, within the meaning of this statute, unless the same shall have been or shall be submitted to or acquiesced in for one year after the party interrupted shall have had or shall have notice thereof, and of the person making or authorizing the same to be made.




Read more at Law Teacher: http://www.lawteacher.net/free-law-e...#ixzz3u7XvLgDt'


I will consult two specialist lawyers opinions on the subject etc
I will report back what their guidance is, will take a couple of months [im busy]

Please do, we all learn


Rrrrepeat, rewind. If anyone reading ever suspects that you have a shared supply never try to treat the neighbour as a reflection of yourself, as a sentient being of reason. expect only the standard human bovine stupidity.
So do not alert the neighbour, no matter how good your relations are with them. just quietly do your own thing.

Comments in red

[jonjonbb]

Re: I need advice about a possible shared water supply with my neighbour.

Are you wanting to replace your main because it is lead? You haven't posted the reason for the change but there has to be a reason why you need to go to the expense of specialist lawyers and all the hassle. repairing your water pipe would have always been a cost to you and as for water bills unless you are on a meter both yours and your neighbours would be set on rates so I couldn't see any change apart from maybe up if you go on a meter.

hi Meellis
yes because it is poisonous lead, and it has already leaked which i had to dig up myself to detect the source [no one could find the source of the leak] and pay for.
so i want my pipes where i can see them if they leak.

[wales01man]

Re: I need advice about a possible shared water supply with my neighbour.

Where are the popes buried?if they are outside on your property after the water boards service stopcock its your liability theirs ends at their stopcock if its shared after that you and the neighbour are responsible for ut

[meellis]

Re: I need advice about a possible shared water supply with my neighbour.

Even though lead is a concern who knows how far the lead can go back. You and any other users on this main are responsible for any maintenance or repairs after the suppliers stopcock so if the supplier has lead supplying the stopcock then you are only removing the short bit of lead from the stopcock to your property unless you know there has been a new main laid within the street. I am a plumber and heating engineer and I can tell you that modern plastic pipe fails as much as lead does, which isn't much it is generally bad workmanship that fails. The water regulations stipulate the depth and way that new water mains have to be laid and enter a property so you will be less able to see them than the existing supply so you will not be any better off in detecting leaks but you will be solely liable for the repairs if needed. They will probably expect you to be metered as well and unless it is a very large property with few inhabitants then your bills might be higher so in all you might be spending a lot of money for little benefit in my opinion.

- - - Updated - - -

I know it was a typo Wales but aren't the popes buried near the Vatican.

[des8]

Re: I need advice about a possible shared water supply with my neighbour.

hi Meellis
yes because it is poisonous lead, and it has already leaked which i had to dig up myself to detect the source [no one could find the source of the leak] and pay for.
so i want my pipes where i can see them if they leak.

Poisonous lead..... but as the pipes are so old they are unlikely to be contaminating the water. Dwr Cymru offer a free testing service for possible lead contamination. If there is contamination and you replace your supply pipe they will replace the communication pipe if it is also lead.
You want to see your pipes ..... but from the company stop cock to your house it will need to be underground ;
"The minimum requirementsfor the laying of your supply are:The pipe must be laid at a minimumdepth of 750mm but not more than1350mm from finished ground level.The pipe must also be ducted if itpasses through or under wall footings,foundations or any solid floors; the ductsmust be large enough for the servicepipe to pass through and be withdrawnif necessary. At the point where itprotrudes from the ducting insidethe property it must be fitted with anapproved internal stop tap."

[wales01man]

Re: I need advice about a possible shared water supply with my neighbour.

Meelis I thought popes went to heaven

[meellis]

Re: I need advice about a possible shared water supply with my neighbour.

I am not RC but after posting I wondered if Popes were buried or cremated.

[Openlaw15]

Re: I need advice about a possible shared water supply with my neighbour.

Yes Kati, Indeed it is craziness lolol

If anyone reading ever suspects that you have a shared supply never try to treat the neighbour as a reflection of yourself, as a sentient being of reason. expect only the standard human stupidity.
So never alert the neighbour, just quietly do your own thing

Online quotes say new water supply for neighbour is only £500 to 1000 [it would be a simple job, neighbour house only 3metres from mains]. So I don’t know what the halfwit neighbour is playing at. [he is a landlord after all, and the kitchen is beautiful and very modern]
Disappointed no one had property lawyer recommendations, case law, or had or knew of challenges to supposed easement and shared supply.
Ive found the solicitor database, and am still looking for property lawyers well versed in the case law about shared supplies, easements, and challenging them. I will ask them questions like:


1. i will check that easements can't be acquired by prescription if the owner incurs a cost [ my water bill, and the repairing my water supply pipe in 2015 was certainly a cost].

2. ive read that under prescription act, easement rights the access has to be without secrecy.

3. also that is it is for neighbour to prove there is a shared supply, is for them to prove that they have the right to access etc. there are no visible pipes to their property in my cellar
http://www.gardenlaw.co.uk/phpBB2/vi...7dbe9&start=45



4. i will check also that my reading of this is correct. that the absolute right for shared water use has not been granted [if we do indeed share a supply]
'The Prescription Act has certain requirements which stand alone from the other two methods. Section 4 of the Prescription Act 1832 states the relevant period in each case is that ‘next before action’. This requirement means that however long the period of ‘user as of right’, no absolute right is acquired until it is established in action [13] .

Read more at Law Teacher: http://www.lawteacher.net/free-law-e...#ixzz3u7XvLgDt'


I will consult two specialist lawyers opinions on the subject etc
I will report back what their guidance is, will take a couple of months [im busy]


Rrrrepeat, rewind. If anyone reading ever suspects that you have a shared supply never try to treat the neighbour as a reflection of yourself, as a sentient being of reason. expect only the standard human bovine stupidity.
So do not alert the neighbour, no matter how good your relations are with them. just quietly do your own thing.

A prescription is a claim to use another person's land where there is no value (ie consideration offered)...as it must not have any permission for a start.