travel time and expenses

[shamen]

Hi all, hope you can offer some of the usual sage adviceon this one!

Ive got a friend who is working in the construction trade and just recetly heard of something that doesnt sound right. Lets say for arguments sake he is based in birmingham - his house is there, the company office who he work for is there etc.

For the past 4 years he has been sent to sites all over the uk - sometimes with 6 hours of round trip driving in one day - and hasnt been paid for a penny of that driving time. His employer is saying he has no 'normal' place of work (eg, he doesnt 'work' in their offices) that his place of work varies from day to day so they do not have to pay him travel as he should be getting himself to the site (meaning, if they have a customer in say, newcastle, his place of work on that day will be newcastle). They provide the vehicle and pay for the fuel though. He is a full time employee - PAYE - and not contract. Im not sure if he is salaried or hourly.

so my poor mate is driving sometimes 3 hours to get to a job, working on site for 8 hours, then driving 3 hours back home and only being paid for 8 hours instead of 14.

to add insult to injury, the company now want him to drive down to the south of cornwall on a monday morning (unpaid till on site) and then stayin a b&b all week (they have paid accomodation) and drive back on a friday night (unpaid). They have said he cannot claim expenses other then the fuel - so no night time meals or entertiainment - but have offered him £10 a day sustinence (i think thats what he said) payment to cover entertainment and any food throughout the day - which seems like a bit of a mickey take as that will buy him a sarnie for lunch and a hamburder for tea. Its not like he can nip home and cook up some dinner tbh.

his employer is very 'take it or leave it' and know they can push my friend around as he is a bit of ap ushover sometimes. they have said if he doesnt like it hes free to resign.

Can anyone here offer some advice on what to do and what the legalities are in this area?

many thanks

[charitynjw]

Re: travel time and expenses

Hi shamen,

There seems to be two issues here.

First, the number of hours 'worked'.
This would be related to Working Time Limits - some info here
http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Employme...ff/DG_10029426

Secondly, subsistence payments.
For something which should be simple, it is in fact very complicated, & probably needs a tax accountant to explain.
However, here are links to HMRC http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/manuals/eimanual/EIM05200.htm & http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/briefs/income-tax/brief2409.htm as a starting point.

[labman]

Re: travel time and expenses

I think a lot will depend on what is in your friend's contract.

There is an argument that as he commutes to and from a temporary workplace which forms less than 40% of his working time, he can claim travelling expenses from HMRC, ergo it must be classed as work.

However, it is not that simple, and it would be my suspicion his employers are within their rights. They provide a car, pay for the fuel etc....

For a definitive answer he would need to see an Employment Law specialist if his contract is silent on the issue. Alternatively, if he is in a union, they may be a good source of advice.

[stivis]

Re: travel time and expenses

First thing is the contract of employment has he got one?
second is the location( or base of work) if the base of work is the main office then traveling to a site would be from that point to the site and would be in the company's time(traveling back may or may not)
If hourly paid this may be at a "fall back" rate ie not the normal rate more a non-productive rate
If the base is classed as the "Site" then he has to make his way there at his own cost...
"the company now want him to drive down to the south of cornwall on a monday morning (unpaid till on site)"
this makes me think that is the case

and then staying a b&b all week (they have paid accomodation) .......they are footing the bill?
They have said he cannot claim expenses other then the fuel....... they are paying that ,fair enough
but have offered him £10 a day subsistence.........again fair enough

Legally the employer I would say is in the right

Morally ...he's not even close

What I used to do was pay the traveling time both ways,straight rate ,plus lodging allowance if applicable, (the troops sorted where themselves)

[labman]

Re: travel time and expenses

if the base of work is the main office then traveling to a site would be from that point to the site and would be in the company's time(traveling back may or may not)

Where did you find this?

I agree with your post (unfortunately, as I think it's ridiculous). After reading around I couldn't find anything that stated even this much though, hence my question.

[calamity jane]

Re: travel time and expenses

Not sure if it's any help, but found the following:

Implementation Of The Working Time Regulations



Travel for work
All the organisations that chose to specify their
position on this issue said that time travelling on
work business counts as working time. However,
in a retail organisation the time involved must
exceed two hours before it could be included.
Employers did not generally include time
travelling to and from home and work as
travelling time. There were two exceptions
amongst our case study organisations. In the
construction contracting company the draft
agreement on the WTR specified that ‘in cases
where an employee’s place of work has been
changed and they are entitled to excess home to
office expenses, the travel time will be classed as
working time for a period of a maximum of four
years during which they receive payment.’
Meanwhile in the guide on the Regulations
produced by a finance company ‘travelling
between home and place of work when the
employee is obliged to use the employer’s
transport’ and ‘travelling in the employer’s time
from home to a workplace other than the regular
workplace’, were both counted as working time.


CJ

[stivis]

Re: travel time and expenses

It is from old Inland Revenue and National Union agreements,I would have no idea when they were drawn up I'd guess in the early 80s,and when the WTD came into force they still remained.
Two points to it , non union used it if it was to their advantage,
There was also tax liabilities addressed in lodging allowances

It was mostly valid in contracting



below is from directgov

What does not count as work?

Pay and Work Rights Helpline

For confidential help and advice on working hours call 0800 917 2368
Pay and Work Rights Helpline

Your working week does not include:
breaks when no work is done, such as lunch breaks
normal travel to and from work****
time when you are on call away from the workplace
evening and day-release classes not related to work
travelling outside of normal working hours
unpaid overtime that you have volunteered for, so for example, staying late to finish something off
paid or unpaid holiday

[labman]

Re: travel time and expenses

No wonder I didn't find it! lol

Thank you.

[stivis]

Re: travel time and expenses

I actually shredded them yesterday,...........thought "I never need this again"

[daggz68]

Re: travel time and expenses

Hmm. Could I possibly gain money owed from travelling around England and not getting paid travelling time from a job I was in over 10 years ago then I wonder?