Invoice in dispute

[Bikingwidow]

Hi, I was wondering if anyone could give me any advice as to my legal standpoint on the following issue:

I recently had a conservatory built and an internal wall taken down by a local company. They got their associated architect out to do a survey and the designs. When they were just about to knock the wall down their builders realised it was a supporting wall. We were informed that it was 'unforseen circumstances' and there was no way that the architect or anyone could have forseen that this wall - which used to seperate the coal cellar from the kitchen - could be a supporting wall and we had to pay a fortune for a structural engineers report and then pay them for the extra work. We paid the engineer to get things moving but the invoice for installing the RSJ etc has just come in and we were wondering if we have any comeback on this. At the time we had to write a letter saying we would agree to the work being done and that the final price would be based on labour and materials though he refused to give even a vague estimate.

To make things worse, when they took to wall down they 'realised' that the floors were two different levels and said work could not proceed without levelling this and that it would cost more. The guy chatted to the builder and said that he thought it might take about two days, maybe more, maybe less, but that he would charge £400 - exorbitant I know but I was desperate to get things going - and I had to put in writing that I agreed to this. However, the work took less than one day and I have now received an invoice for £400 plus VAT making it £470. I am positive that there was no mention of the 'plus VAT' in our conversation or the letter I wrote - unfortunately I don't have a copy - but is there any way I can challenge this?

I don't mind paying a fair price but this man is rude and confrontational and just seems out to make a buck.
Any advice greatfully recieved.

Thanks

[Guest]

Re: Invoice in dispute

If you believe you have been overcharged, then ensure that you obtain a full breakdown of the costs.

What kind of professional indemnity insurance does the architect hold? I would be most suspicious of the situation you found yourself in with regard to the supporting wall. Precisely when did they foresee the unforeseen as it would appear to have been most fortuitous, in time to prevent a disaster, but only just?

Finally, if you have an issue with VAT, take it up with HMRC because it’s not the builders fault – that is unless he is not registered for VAT, in which case, report him.

[Bikingwidow]

Re: Invoice in dispute

Thanks for your reply.

Yes - with the supporting wall it was just as the company's builders were about to take down the wall that they 'spotted' that it was supporting. Apparently, there was no way to tell before they got to this stage.
Just as you said, I am suspicious, but what can I do about it?


With regard to the VAT - I don't object to paying VAT and the company are registered. What I object to is being quoted a figure and then told when the invoice comes in that VAT is on top of this. Surely he should have specified this at the time as I am not a company but an individual?

Thanks again.

[Guest]

Re: Invoice in dispute

Complain to them Tell them that you are not going to pay the bill because you are suspicious and ask them why it was not spotted until "just" before they were about to take it down.

As for the VAT, had you been presented with other bills or quotations that were nett of VAT?

[Bikingwidow]

Re: Invoice in dispute

When we first got the quote for the conservatory the salesman gave us a price without VAT then added it on - all part of the same conversation. I will ask for a copy of our "agreement" but I am sure that there was no mention of adding VAT onto the figure quoted.

As for the wall, I did query it with them at the time and I was told that there was no way that they could find out that it was a supporting wall until they got to this stage and started removing parts of the ceiling etc.

Can I also I ask - if I tell him that the invoices are in dispute can he legally charge me interest as long as they remain unpaid.

Thanks

[EXC]

Re: Invoice in dispute

As for the wall, I did query it with them at the time and I was told that there was no way that they could find out that it was a supporting wall until they got to this stage and started removing parts of the ceiling etc.


Thanks

I would say that one would only need to look in the loft to find out if the wall was supporting or not. Is there a loft? The architect who surveyed and designed it should and could have established whether the wall was supporting.

[Guest]

Re: Invoice in dispute

When we first got the quote for the conservatory the salesman gave us a price without VAT then added it on - all part of the same conversation. I will ask for a copy of our "agreement" but I am sure that there was no mention of adding VAT onto the figure quoted.

As for the wall, I did query it with them at the time and I was told that there was no way that they could find out that it was a supporting wall until they got to this stage and started removing parts of the ceiling etc.

Can I also I ask - if I tell him that the invoices are in dispute can he legally charge me interest as long as they remain unpaid.

Thanks

You are entitled to disupte an invoice and nothing should be added until a satisfactory agreement is reached. He may attempt to charge interest on an unpaid invoice, but equally, you may dispute it.

[stivis]

Re: Invoice in dispute

They got their associated architect out to do a survey and the designs. When they were just about to knock the wall down their builders realised it was a supporting wall.

I doubt that that is true,an architect knows full well what is and isn't a supporting wall, so I'd go after his Professional Indemnity,as he clearly spotted it in the first place and made a pig's ear of it.
As EXC says a look in the loft is all that is needed at the most , I would just looked at the 4 walls ,and the construction and size,

Structure report on an RSJ? circa £200

The VAT ,HMRC had a note in changes about 2001, that stated "VAT to indviduals (the public) should be inclusive in the quotation" with a slight proviso in that if not the price should be clearly stated and attention drawn to the fact that VAT was excluded..........I can't quote the section word for word but that is the rules

[scoobydoo]

Re: Invoice in dispute

When we first got the quote for the conservatory the salesman gave us a price without VAT then added it on - all part of the same conversation. I will ask for a copy of our "agreement" but I am sure that there was no mention of adding VAT onto the figure quoted.

As for the wall, I did query it with them at the time and I was told that there was no way that they could find out that it was a supporting wall until they got to this stage and started removing parts of the ceiling etc.

Can I also I ask - if I tell him that the invoices are in dispute can he legally charge me interest as long as they remain unpaid.

Thanks

IMO and architect and a structural engineer are two different kettle of fish and if the architect did not know whther or not it was a supporting wall he should have asked for a SE report before the company even did the quote. And if there was no way to tell ( dont believe this) then they should have put the proviso in the quote for the extra cost. I expect it is hard to be confrontational in the middle of a build ,it might be wise to ask for a copy of the builders VAT registration certificate and the releveant certification of the architect.You may need this for any claim later - actually the VAT registration number should be printed on all paper work including quotes I think.