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BMW Financial Services - Voluntary Termination/Excess Mileage

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  • Originally posted by KurtCrisco View Post

    Email conversations should be sufficient. Would you be happy to potentially share these? Redacting your personal information before doing so of course?

    I'm happy to guide you through the process of converting these to .PDFs etc. - this is absolutely vital evidence in our fights as it is evidence of BMW FS admitting liability!
    The things is I have evidence as I always email everything and have BMWFS saying these are invoices, the thing is though what exactly can we do about it as they will clearly tell us we owe the money so what's the best possible step knowing our situation?

    The only way forward, as far as I can see, is to call their bluff and take them to court, would you not agree?

    It's now 10 months since I VT'd the car and I can't see how it's not going to continue until something is either paid towards the invoice or they are taken to court, if taking them to court what would the principle reason be, thats these invoices are disputed?

    I've tried contacting the credit agency but they clearly do not care as I've had no response, maybe going to the papers is a way to have this stopped?

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Dehaw View Post
      KurtCrisco are you any further forward?

      It seems we are both pretty much in the same boat and although I now live in Australia I do have properties in the UK so makes sense to try and resolve this.

      Have you spoken with any solicitors about the best way forward?

      Can we challenge the credit agencies for allowing BMW to do what they are doing without taking this to court?

      Would it be easier to take BMW to court and call their bluff?

      R0b what are your thoughts based on where we are at?

      Thanks, I truly appreciate any help.
      Highly unlikely that you could take this further unless you bring someone else on board such as the media, or if everyone affected refers this to Elizabeth Denham. The only way I see it is to take court action, either BMW will defend it all the way to trial and in which case you have your day in court, otherwise they might try to settle at some point - their starting point will be to defend it. Otherwise I don't think you are going to go anywhere.

      I've started drafting an example letter before action which is loosely based on something I had written to Santander about in relation to collection fees (see attached below). It's not yet complete and needs a little tidying up, but the majority of it is there so you can get a feel of the reasons you would be claiming.
      Attached Files
      DISCLAIMER: ANY CONTENT I POST IS INTENDED FOR EDUCATIONAL AND INFORMATIONAL PURPOSES ONLY AND IS NOT A REPLACEMENT OR SUBSTITUTION FOR LEGAL ADVICE. I MAKE NO REPRESENTATIONS AS TO THE ACCURACY OF MY POSTS NOR DO I ASSUME ANY RESPONSIBILITY. USE OF ANY CONTENT IS SOLELY AT YOUR OWN RISK AND COST AND I ACCEPT NO LIABILITY. YOU SHOULD SEEK INDEPENDENT LEGAL ADVICE BY GOING TO Law Society's Find A Solicitor OR CONTACT YOUR LOCAL Citizen's Advice Bureau.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Dehaw View Post

        The things is I have evidence as I always email everything and have BMWFS saying these are invoices, the thing is though what exactly can we do about it as they will clearly tell us we owe the money so what's the best possible step knowing our situation?

        The only way forward, as far as I can see, is to call their bluff and take them to court, would you not agree?

        It's now 10 months since I VT'd the car and I can't see how it's not going to continue until something is either paid towards the invoice or they are taken to court, if taking them to court what would the principle reason be, thats these invoices are disputed?

        I've tried contacting the credit agency but they clearly do not care as I've had no response, maybe going to the papers is a way to have this stopped?
        Dehaw, I have seen your posts. Apologies for not having come back to you, I haven't been very well at all of late. Probably not helped by the stress induced by these cloth eared idiots at BMW FS.

        I agree with what you're saying but there is risk on both sides with the court route. I've been considering this option for quite some time as you well know, but I simply cannot afford to do this through a private solicitor, nor will anyone insure me for it, because of the aforementioned risk. I'm tempted still to explore the Small Claims Court route, but I'm unsure whether or not this would carry enough clout really.

        As you quite rightly say, BMW FS will carry this on for us both, indefinitely. They won't take us to court, or at least I highly doubt that they will, because they are very aware of the risk in doing so on their side. They'll just keep abusing their powers to report data to Credit Reference Agencies, because they know it's harf for us to combat, and low risk for them. It's a slow burn, bullying tactic that they're hoping will pursuade us to cough up the undue sums.

        Credit Reference Agencies won't help, I've already been down this route. They don't want to get involved in the whole sticky mess frankly.

        Originally posted by R0b View Post

        Highly unlikely that you could take this further unless you bring someone else on board such as the media, or if everyone affected refers this to Elizabeth Denham. The only way I see it is to take court action, either BMW will defend it all the way to trial and in which case you have your day in court, otherwise they might try to settle at some point - their starting point will be to defend it. Otherwise I don't think you are going to go anywhere.

        I've started drafting an example letter before action which is loosely based on something I had written to Santander about in relation to collection fees (see attached below). It's not yet complete and needs a little tidying up, but the majority of it is there so you can get a feel of the reasons you would be claiming.
        I've been thinking about bringing the media on board for a while now, so I might investigate routes to do so. The problem for me is finding the time to write some enormous detailed report about the situation. The amount of my time that's already been wasted on this utterly ridiculous situation thanks to BMW FS' incompetence is laughable, so I'd rather not waste more time unncessarily, and I fear the media wouldn't even bother to respond if I contacted them.

        Rob - thanks for sending this template through. I will have a read through this later. Is this designed for use in a Small Claims Court type scenario, or via a privately instructed solicitor?

        What are your thoughts on the Small Claims route R0b? Frankly, if you think this would hold enough weight then I'm willing and ready to push the button on this. I'm sick to death of BMW FS - what they are doing is illegal, and so damaging to my perceived credit worthiness. As you know, I've tried a few different methods again of late, including investigating a new vehicle with BMW - my hope was that BMW FS would wise up and get things sorted with the prospect of a new sale in the mix, but unsurprisingly, they weren't interested. They still wouldn't budge an inch.

        If the Small Claims Route isn't viable, then I will have no choice at this point but to make BMW FS a without prejudice offer. I am so utterly loathed to do so, but I'm a young man who needs to extend his mortgage soon. I won't be able to do that whilst all this is rumbling on, so I might have to just try and see it as myself "being the bigger man".

        Comment


        • Rob - thanks for sending this template through. I will have a read through this later. Is this designed for use in a Small Claims Court type scenario, or via a privately instructed solicitor?
          The letter can be used for small claims, if you were instructing a solicitor then they would no doubt draft their own LBA. As above, its a rough and ready draft and a few things need tidying up and inserting such as claiming compensation.

          There's always a risk going to court on something like this, particularly where there is no clear case law authorities that provides the answer. I think we are all in agreement that what BMW is wrong and they are doing it because they can get away with it. Only a Court can make that decision and agree that what they are doing is unlawful. You'll see from the letter that there are suggestions and/or inferences which indicate that outstanding monies which are made up solely of fees or charges should not be reported on a credit account because it gives a misleading impression to other lenders and doesn't accurately reflect whether you've met the credit repayments under the agreement.

          Yes it would cost you money to issue a claim and it would then force BMW's hand to respond and either defend or settle the matter. I would suspect they might threaten you with legal costs if you pursue it and lose but I really can't see a court allowing that because its a moot point and open to interpretation. Legal costs are only recoverable if your conduct is unreasonable.

          As this is your dispute, you have to weigh up your options and if it means making a without prejudice offer then that is what you may need to do.
          DISCLAIMER: ANY CONTENT I POST IS INTENDED FOR EDUCATIONAL AND INFORMATIONAL PURPOSES ONLY AND IS NOT A REPLACEMENT OR SUBSTITUTION FOR LEGAL ADVICE. I MAKE NO REPRESENTATIONS AS TO THE ACCURACY OF MY POSTS NOR DO I ASSUME ANY RESPONSIBILITY. USE OF ANY CONTENT IS SOLELY AT YOUR OWN RISK AND COST AND I ACCEPT NO LIABILITY. YOU SHOULD SEEK INDEPENDENT LEGAL ADVICE BY GOING TO Law Society's Find A Solicitor OR CONTACT YOUR LOCAL Citizen's Advice Bureau.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by R0b View Post

            Highly unlikely that you could take this further unless you bring someone else on board such as the media, or if everyone affected refers this to Elizabeth Denham. The only way I see it is to take court action, either BMW will defend it all the way to trial and in which case you have your day in court, otherwise they might try to settle at some point - their starting point will be to defend it. Otherwise, I don't think you are going to go anywhere.

            I've started drafting an example letter before action which is loosely based on something I had written to Santander about in relation to collection fees (see attached below). It's not yet complete and needs a little tidying up, but the majority of it is there so you can get a feel for the reasons you would be claiming.
            R0b thanks very much for your response, I appreciate the effort and time you spend on this matter to help us. Your letter to me sums up pretty much where we are and the facts of what BMWFS is doing. I'd like to proceed with this, if no one does we will never know the outcome and organisations like BMWFS will continue to ruin the lives of many in an unlawful way.

            I'd suspect if I sent this and then took them to court the facts being discussed at court would be their unlawful submissions rather than the disputed invoices, which BMWFS has confirmed that's what they are meaning if they are invoices and they don't form part of the HP agreement then they are fees and charges and thus unclaimable and should not be placed onto a credit agreement when that credit agreement was terminated and BMWFS agreed that under the CCA.

            I can't see how any reasonable person can see in favour of BMWFS, can you?

            They claim I owe 4400 if they felt that this was a sum they could recover and was worth recovering in court why haven't they bothered to take me to court?

            It only costs a few hundred pounds to take anyone to the small claims court and although I don't need the hassle and live in Australia I'll happily pay to do this although I'd need to ensure I get the court hearing in August so that I can attend, unless I get someone to appear for me?

            Surely this could be huge for the industry if they either win/lose?

            To me they just can't win, reading R0b's LBA it's a clear-cut case that BMWFS is being unreasonable and if going to court with these facts any reasonable person and judge would look down on BMWFS for their bullying tactics, which could ultimately leave some without a home or indeed push them over the edge.

            If I add in my content R0b can I ask you to look over it and modify to suit so that it reads like it's come from a lawyer, your writing looks much more legal than my own and I'm guessing if the LBA reads like that it'll make BMWFS site up and take note?

            KurtCrisco, no worries, I know how frustrating things are and the time wasted on this has probably outweighed the original claim from BMWFS but in principle, I believe we need to stick to our guns and take these bullies to court and call their bluff.

            Comment


            • Dehaw

              Feel free to use the draft LBA though I have completely re-amended it now so that I have a sub-heading on the 'legal framework' setting out the DPA provisions and definition of credit reference agency and then summarising the relevant guidance. I thought that might be a better fit to set the scene rather than trying to interweave the guidance between arguments under the 'basis of the claim' sub-heading. I'll post that version up when its finished so you can all see what it looks like - trying to keep it as simple and less legalese as possible is key.

              I'm just really busy at the moment so its taking me longer to sit down and type it all out but I am hoping by end of next week there will be a working LBA for others to use or cherry pick parts of the letter as they deem necessary.

              Happy to look over anything if you want to post up earlier but in terms of getting a court date by August this year, I would probably say that's not likely to happen. I always assume it will take at least 6 months before a trial date is confirmed, possibly 4 if things go to plan and the courts are not busy (which is never these days).
              DISCLAIMER: ANY CONTENT I POST IS INTENDED FOR EDUCATIONAL AND INFORMATIONAL PURPOSES ONLY AND IS NOT A REPLACEMENT OR SUBSTITUTION FOR LEGAL ADVICE. I MAKE NO REPRESENTATIONS AS TO THE ACCURACY OF MY POSTS NOR DO I ASSUME ANY RESPONSIBILITY. USE OF ANY CONTENT IS SOLELY AT YOUR OWN RISK AND COST AND I ACCEPT NO LIABILITY. YOU SHOULD SEEK INDEPENDENT LEGAL ADVICE BY GOING TO Law Society's Find A Solicitor OR CONTACT YOUR LOCAL Citizen's Advice Bureau.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by R0b View Post
                Dehaw

                Feel free to use the draft LBA though I have completely re-amended it now so that I have a sub-heading on the 'legal framework' setting out the DPA provisions and definition of credit reference agency and then summarising the relevant guidance. I thought that might be a better fit to set the scene rather than trying to interweave the guidance between arguments under the 'basis of the claim' sub-heading. I'll post that version up when its finished so you can all see what it looks like - trying to keep it as simple and less legalese as possible is key.

                I'm just really busy at the moment so its taking me longer to sit down and type it all out but I am hoping by end of next week there will be a working LBA for others to use or cherry pick parts of the letter as they deem necessary.

                Happy to look over anything if you want to post up earlier but in terms of getting a court date by August this year, I would probably say that's not likely to happen. I always assume it will take at least 6 months before a trial date is confirmed, possibly 4 if things go to plan and the courts are not busy (which is never these days).
                Thanks for doing this R0b. Once you've finished it, I'm happy to submit this to BMW FS and see what their response is, so please do share.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by R0b View Post
                  Dehaw

                  Feel free to use the draft LBA though I have completely re-amended it now so that I have a sub-heading on the 'legal framework' setting out the DPA provisions and definition of credit reference agency and then summarising the relevant guidance. I thought that might be a better fit to set the scene rather than trying to interweave the guidance between arguments under the 'basis of the claim' sub-heading. I'll post that version up when its finished so you can all see what it looks like - trying to keep it as simple and less legalese as possible is key.

                  I'm just really busy at the moment so its taking me longer to sit down and type it all out but I am hoping by end of next week there will be a working LBA for others to use or cherry pick parts of the letter as they deem necessary.

                  Happy to look over anything if you want to post up earlier but in terms of getting a court date by August this year, I would probably say that's not likely to happen. I always assume it will take at least 6 months before a trial date is confirmed, possibly 4 if things go to plan and the courts are not busy (which is never these days).
                  Thanks a million, R0b!

                  I have contacted BMWFS and asked specifically for the contact details of the person that will be dealing with the court action, I did say that it is in connection with the false submissions on my credit file but I have yet to get a reply, they did get back to me the same day asking for my account number but they have not yet responded with any further details.

                  The only contact information I have is the vehicle logistics advisor but would be best to take this directly to the department that knows about it.

                  As soon as you end over the revised version I'll happily update it and get it submitted to them asap.

                  Comment


                  • Hi all

                    the likelihood is I will be taking BMWFS to a small claims court also. Any help in how best to approach this would really be appreciated. I am guessing I will have to aquire the services of solicitor , I have a good one in mind.

                    Comment

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