wrong debt = High court Enforcement - I want to dispute the whole lot

[matrixsteele]

Hi im in need of quick advice.

A few years ago my daughter went to nursery, after paying everything etc the company started messing up the invoices, my wife queried it with the finance department of the company who confirmed that the were errors on the account (we have loads of emails backing this up)

after loads of emails back and forth, my wife got so frustrated the notified them that she would pull our daughter out with immediate effect.

the issue is that they invoiced us which we are aware we are paid up, but they also charged us for the month in advance that she was not there.

we stopped receiving emails from the company and assumed it was all dealt with.

Fast forward to 31st August, we received a letter saying that it had been to court, passed up to high court and we had a few days to pay the balance of £1300, my wife called the number on the letter and they said that the agent dealing with the case would call her back, obviously they didnt.

I called the childcare company and told them that i have proof of the errors and emails and the lady said she will contact the her lawyers and get a stop for 30 days to get it resolved, i called the lawyers after and asked the 30 day request had been put in place, she said, no but it wont make any difference as the enforcement has already started

Friday 14th September, knock at the door, high court enforcement, refused to speak to me as the company only took my wife to court, said we had to pay £1800 or it would go upto £3000. i requested to see the writ, it wasnt shown to me, the officer only "read" out the writ, and zoomed in on the "stamp" on his tablet - they really p**sed me off, they were laughing at us, my wife was a state, they called us liars and tbh their IDs we bits of laminated paper.

I spoke to the lawyer company again who said the girl went on holiday, and didnt call the childcare company to check, i called the childcare company who said she did say we could have 30 days to sort it out, but she didnt action it, and has been in and out of work; they are now refusing to do anything and said that i have to deal with the lawyer company, they even said that they will not send us anything that i requested under a subject access request.

Now obviously i want the money back, in full.

1. How do i take it back to court, we had no contact from anyone, we updated our address, they still have our mobile number and email which has not changed, we did not get any court notification at all.
2. my wife is adamant that she never signed a contract
3. how do i fill out the N244 form, we have been approved the help with fees

I want to argue the case as we have evidence to prove it all, attached is 3x invoices, the same date and invoice number but with different amounts; the May bill is invalid as she was not there.

We cant afford our own Lawyers as we are both off work due to health.

Any help is appreciated

[Amethyst]

Tagging ploddertom on the bailiff side of things and having a read of your post xx

[Amethyst]

Okay. Bailiff's aside, although that needs dealing with most urgently, it does sound like you would have cause to have the judgment set-aside as you hadn't received the claim from the court.

There's an outline of how to do this here and you can use the application to ask the warrant be suspended. Set Aside Application

[ploddertom]

The most urgent situation is that you must apply for a Stay of Execution against the Wit of Control that the HCEO has. Whilst I appreciate you may see Set Aside as the route to go it is the Stay that is more important as any other application you make is overridden by a "live" Writ. You application for this is best made in person and would suggest you attend either Oxford or Northampton County Courts as each of these do have a District Registry of the High Court.

You say you entitled to help with costs for fees so this should not be an issue as long as you take the correct forms & proofs of eligibility with you. You do need grounds on which to apply and we can help you fill the N244 in as a matter of course. When completed take the forms in person to the chosen Court and explain that your application is urgent - in most cases a Judge can be found who will hear your application immediately and hopefully grant a Stay pending a further Hearing. If this happens then all further Enforcement and/or charges is put on hold providing you abide by any rules the Judge makes.

One of the reasons your Creditor + their Solicitor is now uncooperative is because if they accept payments form you they themselves can be held liable for all the Fees.

Any more help please shout.

[matrixsteele]

The most urgent situation is that you must apply for a Stay of Execution against the Wit of Control that the HCEO has. Whilst I appreciate you may see Set Aside as the route to go it is the Stay that is more important as any other application you make is overridden by a "live" Writ. You application for this is best made in person and would suggest you attend either Oxford or Northampton County Courts as each of these do have a District Registry of the High Court.

You say you entitled to help with costs for fees so this should not be an issue as long as you take the correct forms & proofs of eligibility with you. You do need grounds on which to apply and we can help you fill the N244 in as a matter of course. When completed take the forms in person to the chosen Court and explain that your application is urgent - in most cases a Judge can be found who will hear your application immediately and hopefully grant a Stay pending a further Hearing. If this happens then all further Enforcement and/or charges is put on hold providing you abide by any rules the Judge makes.

One of the reasons your Creditor + their Solicitor is now uncooperative is because if they accept payments form you they themselves can be held liable for all the Fees.

Any more help please shout.

Thank you for your reply, I just half filled out the N244 form to be set aside under the grounds that we never received the claim.

As we now live in Eastbourne, How do i do this "Stay" i want to do everything correctly, i have copies of my tenancy agreements .

The problem is we Paid £1800, or they would take our items,

Who do i claim to get all the money back

[ploddertom]

Thanks for coming back to me - is everything now paid in full?

[matrixsteele]

Thanks for coming back to me - is everything now paid in full?

yes we have,

Copy of receipt: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1NK...ccONzeMID9_-uL

[ploddertom]

In that case many apologies but ignore what I wrote previously as that is all superfluous now. You can afford to sit back and collect your thoughts without the fear of the knock on the door. The way forward is to write to the High Court Company with a SAR which under the new rules is now free and amongst the list of your demands is a breakdown of the fees they charged.

If you apply for Set Aside then again you need grounds to do so and believe Amethyst has suggested because you did not receive the Claim docs, I would go further and suggest that had you known they were going to do this then you could have paid the amount requested - if of course it was correct. It appears there are several versions of what they were trying to claim. If successful then you are due every penny back including the HCEO fees but the original debt would still be outstanding - it's as if you had just received the claim. Someone is still responsible for paying the HCEO fees and if it can be shown that your Creditor was too quick jumping the gun, used an address they knew you were not at, knew they were overcharging etc then rightly it will be them who will be out of pocket.

[ploddertom]

One other thought has come to mind. As an individual any Set Aside would be held at your local Court - guess Hastings, the other side would have to travel, it's some 150 miles or 3.5 hours minimum in each direction. Unless they had representation and we have seen on many occasions how ill prepared or informed these can be.

[matrixsteele]

In that case many apologies but ignore what I wrote previously as that is all superfluous now. You can afford to sit back and collect your thoughts without the fear of the knock on the door. The way forward is to write to the High Court Company with a SAR which under the new rules is now free and amongst the list of your demands is a breakdown of the fees they charged.

If you apply for Set Aside then again you need grounds to do so and believe Amethyst has suggested because you did not receive the Claim docs, I would go further and suggest that had you known they were going to do this then you could have paid the amount requested - if of course it was correct. It appears there are several versions of what they were trying to claim. If successful then you are due every penny back including the HCEO fees but the original debt would still be outstanding - it's as if you had just received the claim. Someone is still responsible for paying the HCEO fees and if it can be shown that your Creditor was too quick jumping the gun, used an address they knew you were not at, knew they were overcharging etc then rightly it will be them who will be out of pocket.

thanks again for you replies,

I have requested a SAR from HCEOs company (want it in writing in the post signed), Lawyers (will be sent by 19th OCT), and the Childcare company (declined which i thought was a breach of DPA, said i need to speak to the lawyers)

i have proof that we were not at the addresses, (attached) and the HCEO have the proof that we called after receiving the enforcement letter.

We have always said that we will pay what we owe but even though they sent the proof that there was an error they can not confirm the amount.

Now could i not be difficult and try to get it struck out, as i obviously have evidence of errors, there is no signed legal contract, they billed in advance even though my daughter had left, travel costs to court etc.

this company right royally F****d us up, we were both working, paying our bills etc, we got 30 hours free help with tax credits, HMRC contacted the Childcare company who said that our daughter didnt attend the full 30 hours, so HMRC back billed and fined us £30,000. this has now been reduced to £13,000 but has majorly impacted living as our benefits have been capped and still waiting to be discharged / signed fit for work / registered disabled. HMRC wont listen anything even though we provided evidence.

i have filled out the N244, (well to an extent) = Do I attach a draft of the order im applying for, if so what should i state.
in section 10 what should i tick or provide?

thank you so much for you help, this forum is amazing

[Amethyst]

I'm not surpised things got frustrating looking at those bills.

Was your daughter attending Mon, Tues, Thurs, Fri for 7.5 hrs each day every week ? or did it change about a lot?

The invoice amounts for the different months varies an awful lot ( from March / April /May as well as between invoices )

Have you worked out exactly when she attended, what the rate was etc. I presume you had to work all that out for HMRC in any event. ( Basically do you know how much the bills should have been ?)

It's often a good idea to file a draft defence with the set aside application so it's often a good idea to work out what the Defence to the claim is before filing. Now we know you don't have the bailiffs at your door ( sadly because you felt you had no choice but to pay them ) we can take a bit more time over it.

Also, with the set aside application, it's good you have the evidence of your move, however do you also have evidence that you informed the nursery of the move at all ?

Was there no signed agreement when your daughter first started at the nursery ? There should have been some kind of terms and conditions to agree to. This would contain the fee info, the details of late collection charges, and cancellation terms. SOmething like this - http://sunshine-nursery.com/data/doc...ement-Form.pdf ( different entirely random childcare provider terms )

The Childcare company do have to abide with Data Protection. If they refuse after you have sent a formal request you should report it to the Information Commisioners office. The nursery don't appear to be registered with the ICO at the moment themselves, but their Parent company is - https://ico.org.uk/ESDWebPages/Entry/Z1323885 - so you could make the request direct to the parent company, along with a complaint about the handling of the invoice issue.

[ploddertom]

If want to be awkward I would be tempted to report the Childcare Co to the Information Commissioner - you have checked to see if they are registered. You could actually file an application at Court to make them comply - sure that would ruffle their feathers.

Don't think it is worth going down the "struck out" route as effectively that is what Set Aside will do and you can always try & claim any allowable expenses with that.

HMRC - not a clue what to do here but would persevere and even send them a SAR including production of phone calls.

N244 Form - some help below use what you need discard anything incorrect
3 - Set Aside Judgment made on XX/xx/XXXX
4 - No
5 - At a Hearing
6 - Leave blank
7 - Fill in any dates you are not available - if any
8 - District Judge
9 - Claimant
9a - leave blank - let Claimant notify their solicitor
10 - Expand as to why you want the Judgment Set Aside
i - you did not receive any notification this had gone to Court
ii - Claimant used an old address knowing we had moved
iii - Claimant could not decide amount that was outstanding
iv - if we had known it had gone to Court then we could have paid the correct sum in full at the time
v - the first we knew about any Judgment was when a HCEO made contact
Sign Statement of Truth - if using additional sheet(s) of paper then you also need to sign those
11 - Sign & Date

Do 1 copy for the Court, 1 for the Claimant & at least 1 for yourself. If it goes to Court and the Judge has mislaid his you may get extra brownie points for providing a spare copy.

[matrixsteele]

Amethyst , our daughter went to nursery max 4 out of 5 days.
the rate apparently changed and we were never notified.

We didn't sign a contract or pay a fee as the nursery "Just followed over" the application from my son which was a year before.

the only thing that signed wasn't really signed, just updated our contact details and if she had any medical conditions, and I personally filled that out not my wife.

so does make the contract invalid?

with the hours my wife went through everything before with HMRC DWP, but because they had a "statement" from the nursery it contradicted us.

We certainly updated our details when we moved, have since moved again but didn't update as there was no contact from them. We gave the details to the manager at the time, as she knew we were moving she allowed my daughter in on a day she wasn't normally in, even updated our employment contacts when I changed jobs. This manager has since left.

When submittingthe n244 form, can I just got to Brighton court, or does my wife need to do it.
What do I need to say / do

[ploddertom]

You could just send it by post - either get a free Certificate of Posting or use the Signed For service.

[matrixsteele]

So today I'm filling out this N244 again meticulously,

I have a copy of my tenancy agreement dated 19/2/18,
a copy of the enforcement which has the date of judgement 21/5/18,
copies of the above invoices.

Do i make copies of the N244 or all the above so it get sent to the claimant or do i retain the as my evidence for when it goes back to court, im sending it in to prove that i was not at the old address or made any contact.

I was have a deep think about all this, and after looking at the old invoices, can i not request in the N244 that i want it struck out?

I wish i could put in a claim for all the stress, make a formal compliant about the enforcement company not acting lawfully, my psychiatrist is going to have a field day when i tell him all this.