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Re: LLOYDS HAD NO T&Cs for PERS CURRENT ACCOUNT prior to NOV 07

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  • Re: LLOYDS HAD NO T&Cs for PERS CURRENT ACCOUNT prior to NOV 07

    with thanks to ed. from PenaltyActionGroup


    Following the recent Judgement there are a couple of paragraphs that caught our eye; namely paragraph 96 and 445.

    96. The Relevant Terms have recently been introduced by the Banks into their contracts with established customers, many of whom will have had a current account with their Bank for some considerable time. The terms of all eight Banks now provide that the Banks may introduce changes, generally by giving notice to their customers. Apart from Lloyds TSB, the evidence is that the Banks had comparable provisions in their previous terms, and it seems likely that they introduced the present terms into their contracts with existing customers by exercising that contractual power. However, the evidence about that is not entirely satisfactory, my decision does not depend upon this question and I make no finding about it. As far as Lloyds TSB is concerned, there is (perhaps understandably in view of the issues raised in the pleadings) no evidence before me whether it had any contractual power to introduce changes to its contracts with its existing customers.
    445. It is against this background that I consider whether I should make the third proposed declaration. The proposed declaration itself refers to the “process by which the Relevant … Charges were agreed by [or otherwise became part of the contract between] the bank and its customers”.

    The wording reflects uncertainty about how the Relevant Terms were introduced into the Banks’ contracts with individual customers, and the evidence about this is unsatisfactory. As I explained in paragraph 96 above, all of the Banks now have the right under their standard terms to give customers thirty days’ notice of a change of terms, and it seems probable that many of them used a comparable power in their previous terms to introduce the Relevant Terms into their existing contracts with individual customers, but there is no clear evidence about this; and indeed in the case of Lloyds’ TSB there is no evidence that it had any such power before its current terms of November 2007, and there is no evidence about how the Relevant Terms were introduced into its existing contracts.
    Prior to the Judgement ed. has requested a copy of the terms & Conditions of his personal Lloyds account as it stood at the accounts inception; this was the response;

    Originally posted by Lloyds in a letter to ed.
    ''You have asked for the 'inception terms and conditions'. We assume you mean the terms and conditions that applied to your personal current account at the time you first opened it. Prior to the introduction of the Personal Banking Terms and Conditions, LTSB did not have full written terms and conditions. Instead, many of the terms and conditions applicable to your personal current account were implied as a matter of common law. As a result, your file will not contain a full set of written terms and conditions relating to the time when you first opened your account.''

    On further investigation it would appear the only terms relating to the account in 2003 were the following;

    Lloyds TSB - current account legal 2003

    Classic account
    Debit card purchase protection, Direct Debit benefit and accidental death benefit cover are not provided automatically - please call into your local branch to register. As with all insurance policies certain exclusions apply. Full details including terms and conditions are available from your local branch.
    Direct debit benefit - you must pay a minimum of 3 out of 5 of the following household bills by direct debit: gas, water, electricity, telephone (not mobile phones) and council tax. You must be aged between 18 - 64 inclusive.
    Accidental death benefit - make both these arrangements and you will be covered for the full �10,000. If you arrange only one of these you will still benefit from �5,000 worth of cover. You must be aged 18 - 64 inclusive.
    Full written details of all borrowing services mentioned in this website and written quotations are available on request. For customers in England and Wales: Lloyds TSB Bank plc, PO Box 112, Canons House, Canons Way, Bristol BS99 7LB. For customers in Scotland: Lloyds TSB Scotland plc, PO Box 177, Henry Duncan House, 120 George Street, Edinburgh EH2 4TS. Lending is dependent on an assessment of your financial position. You must be 18 or over to apply. We may need security from you. Overdrafts are repayable on demand.
    General Insurance advice is provided by Lloyds TSB Insurance Services Limited (Company No. 968406). Loan protection is underwritten by a number of insurers including our related company, Lloyds TSB General Insurance Limited (Company No. 204373). Both Lloyds TSB companies are registered in England, 25 Gresham Street, London EC2V 7HN. Members of the General Insurance Standards Council.

    Click here for information about�Classic account.
    Lloyds have consistently neglected to appear in court to defend any of the claims against them, this put together with the £1.8 million in unstaisfied County Court Judgements against them, and their neglect to enter evidence to the contrary in the test case, appears to point to their knowledge that a massive number of their personal current account holders are entitled to full refunds of overdraft charges under the penalty charges principle under common law.[/quote]



    "If no full written terms and conditions were in place prior to the introduction of Lloyds TSB's most recent variations, the Bank would have no legal or contractual basis to vary ANY terms on current accounts that were opened during that period. They would not even be able to change any applicable interest rates without an agreed contractual term giving the Bank the power and permission to do so. Without that contractual term, which would be within any full written terms and conditions, allowing the Bank to change the original agreement, existing Lloyds TSB customers prior to November 07 would potentially not be legally or contractually held to any subsequently new or revised Terms and Conditions. - In fact an argument could possibly be made now for all pre Nov 07 Lloyds TSB customers with an overdraft that the Bank themselves have, under the Consumer Credit Act 1974, unlawfully rescinded the original contracts that were in place and all the Banks customers can potentially simply walk away with any debt owed to the Bank being unenforceable." - PAG

    The possible implications of this are unthinkable for Lloyds. Any customers who opened their account prior to November 2007 and who have not signed `new` agreements are still subject to the implied terms of Common Law and not the Bank stealth Terms & Conditions. Any charges levied previously or indeed currently are still subject to the terms of the UTCCR 1999 and Common Law and Statute a major blow for Lloyds in the OFT Test Case. In essense, this means that any claimants litigating against Lloyds TSB can continue to consider their charges a disproportionate penalty, despite the recent ruling by Mr Justice Andrew Smith in favour of the remaining Banks.
    Common Sense .... if in doubt, use it !

    “We may not win by protesting, but if we don’t protest we will lose. If we stand up to them, there is always a chance we will win.” Hetty Bower

    Any support I provide is offered without liability, if you are unsure please seek professional legal guidance.

    Find Solicitors offering fixed fees on our sister site - JustBeagle.com

  • #2
    Re: LLOYDS HAD NO T&Cs for PERS CURRENT ACCOUNT prior to NOV 07

    Just a wee bump for ease of reference
    Common Sense .... if in doubt, use it !

    “We may not win by protesting, but if we don’t protest we will lose. If we stand up to them, there is always a chance we will win.” Hetty Bower

    Any support I provide is offered without liability, if you are unsure please seek professional legal guidance.

    Find Solicitors offering fixed fees on our sister site - JustBeagle.com

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: LLOYDS HAD NO T&Cs for PERS CURRENT ACCOUNT prior to NOV 07

      Wow, I've only just read this!

      Originally Posted by Lloyds in a letter to ed.
      ''You have asked for the 'inception terms and conditions'. We assume you mean the terms and conditions that applied to your personal current account at the time you first opened it. Prior to the introduction of the Personal Banking Terms and Conditions, LTSB did not have full written terms and conditions. Instead, many of the terms and conditions applicable to your personal current account were implied as a matter of common law. As a result, your file will not contain a full set of written terms and conditions relating to the time when you first opened your account.''

      I wonder,Does it have any effect on our claims?

      Lloyds have consistently neglected to appear in court to defend any of the claims against them, this put together with the £1.8 million in unstaisfied County Court Judgements against them, and their neglect to enter evidence to the contrary in the test case, appears to point to their knowledge that a massive number of their personal current account holders are entitled to full refunds of overdraft charges under the penalty charges principle under common law.

      How do they get away with this, If it was us, we'd be constantly harrassed until we paid up and it would have a massive negative effect on our credit worthyness!!

      "If no full written terms and conditions were in place prior to the introduction of Lloyds TSB's most recent variations, the Bank would have no legal or contractual basis to vary ANY terms on current accounts that were opened during that period. They would not even be able to change any applicable interest rates without an agreed contractual term giving the Bank the power and permission to do so. Without that contractual term, which would be within any full written terms and conditions, allowing the Bank to change the original agreement, existing Lloyds TSB customers prior to November 07 would potentially not be legally or contractually held to any subsequently new or revised Terms and Conditions. - In fact an argument could possibly be made now for all pre Nov 07 Lloyds TSB customers with an overdraft that the Bank themselves have, under the Consumer Credit Act 1974, unlawfully rescinded the original contracts that were in place and all the Banks customers can potentially simply walk away with any debt owed to the Bank being unenforceable."

      If this is the case, how can they defend the test case against them or am I missing something?

      Shooter
      Education is a fine thing Just so long as you can afford to live whist studying!!

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: LLOYDS HAD NO T&Cs for PERS CURRENT ACCOUNT prior to NOV 07

        If that shocks you read £4million in unsatisfied Judgements against the top Banks - Legal Beagles

        This area is being looked at in depth for the hardship case currently going through court against Lloyds. So hopefully we'll have some more progress soon.


        For reference

        Lloyds TSB - current account legal 2003

        Classic account
        Debit card purchase protection, Direct Debit benefit and accidental death benefit cover are not provided automatically - please call into your local branch to register. As with all insurance policies certain exclusions apply. Full details including terms and conditions are available from your local branch.
        Direct debit benefit - you must pay a minimum of 3 out of 5 of the following household bills by direct debit: gas, water, electricity, telephone (not mobile phones) and council tax. You must be aged between 18 - 64 inclusive.
        Accidental death benefit - make both these arrangements and you will be covered for the full �10,000. If you arrange only one of these you will still benefit from �5,000 worth of cover. You must be aged 18 - 64 inclusive.
        Full written details of all borrowing services mentioned in this website and written quotations are available on request. For customers in England and Wales: Lloyds TSB Bank plc, PO Box 112, Canons House, Canons Way, Bristol BS99 7LB. For customers in Scotland: Lloyds TSB Scotland plc, PO Box 177, Henry Duncan House, 120 George Street, Edinburgh EH2 4TS. Lending is dependent on an assessment of your financial position. You must be 18 or over to apply. We may need security from you. Overdrafts are repayable on demand.
        General Insurance advice is provided by Lloyds TSB Insurance Services Limited (Company No. 968406). Loan protection is underwritten by a number of insurers including our related company, Lloyds TSB General Insurance Limited (Company No. 204373). Both Lloyds TSB companies are registered in England, 25 Gresham Street, London EC2V 7HN. Members of the General Insurance Standards Council.

        Click here for information about�Classic account.
        Common Sense .... if in doubt, use it !

        “We may not win by protesting, but if we don’t protest we will lose. If we stand up to them, there is always a chance we will win.” Hetty Bower

        Any support I provide is offered without liability, if you are unsure please seek professional legal guidance.

        Find Solicitors offering fixed fees on our sister site - JustBeagle.com

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: LLOYDS HAD NO T&Cs for PERS CURRENT ACCOUNT prior to NOV 07

          bump for me
          Common Sense .... if in doubt, use it !

          “We may not win by protesting, but if we don’t protest we will lose. If we stand up to them, there is always a chance we will win.” Hetty Bower

          Any support I provide is offered without liability, if you are unsure please seek professional legal guidance.

          Find Solicitors offering fixed fees on our sister site - JustBeagle.com

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: LLOYDS HAD NO T&Cs for PERS CURRENT ACCOUNT prior to NOV 07

            Originally posted by Amethyst View Post
            bump for me
            again...
            Common Sense .... if in doubt, use it !

            “We may not win by protesting, but if we don’t protest we will lose. If we stand up to them, there is always a chance we will win.” Hetty Bower

            Any support I provide is offered without liability, if you are unsure please seek professional legal guidance.

            Find Solicitors offering fixed fees on our sister site - JustBeagle.com

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: LLOYDS HAD NO T&Cs for PERS CURRENT ACCOUNT prior to NOV 07

              Hi
              what is the case if your original classic account was automatically upgraded to a gold service account, without you requesting it? classic account opened in the 80's upgraded in the 90's,

              Does the recent judgement still apply?

              i do not remember signing anything in the 90's agreeing to the upgrade, but surely they would have sent new T&C's.

              my understanding then is that if any new T&C's were sent they were not full T&C's and then mayn't apply.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: LLOYDS HAD NO T&Cs for PERS CURRENT ACCOUNT prior to NOV 07

                Hi Amethyst, I have just been having a read of this and I am wondering what the implications of this are in easy to understand terms. I have had a court claim today and I've posted up the details today. I worked there and was having my overdraft increased without signing anything and without any checks being done. They are now taking me to court for over 7k but at one point is was only 2.5k when I stopped using the account so I'm baffled as to how this has happened and reached such a large amount. I have had a few responses but I can't quite get to what I need to do next. I am wondering if I can use some of the lack of t&c's plus the fact I've never signed for anything to aid me in my defence?
                Regards
                Christine

                Comment

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