closing an account without probate, how did this happen?

[askyfullofstars]

Basically my grandad died in 2016. In fact a week and a half before my mum.

I know that my grandad had a will as I remember my mum and aunt talking at my mums house a few years ago about how they had been helping my grandad with his will (he had asked them to) and they didn’t know that they couldn’t be witnesses if they were also beneficiaries or something like that, so they had had to get his neighbours to help and they had all had a bit of a laugh about what they would have done had his neighbours not been able to help.
My grandad had been quite open that he wanted all his money (he lived in a Council house so no property) divided equally between all his children but he had also left some provision for my disabled brother as he had sort of adopted him since my dad died a number of years ago.

Now, my mum and my aunt also had some sort of co signatory thing on his bank account as he never left his home.

After my mum died I ended up going no contact with my aunt for personal reasons, I found the whole thing profoundly distressing and I cannot bring myself to contact her. It got to the point at some point where anytime my phone would ring I would just burst into tears thinking it could be her. And tbh even now I feel ill at the idea I may have to talk to her.

Anyway, when sorting my mums things there was a box of stuff that I had just put aside to deal with a later date.

I started to go through that and noticed that there was some stuff addressed to my mum from my grandads bank. So I contacted them to see if I needed to send it back (one of the things was an atm card, it had been sent out when my mum was too ill to do anything with it so it remained in an envelope). They said to drop into a bank with the card and they will destroy it, but not to worry too much because the account was close shortly after my grandad passed away.

However, I have done a probate search with the probate office and nothing was ever granted there. So I suspect that she has emptied the account then closed it in order to avoid paying anything that may be due to my disabled brother and to us (I understand that as my grandad died a week and a half before my mum her inheritance may pass to us unless there was a clause. Though tbh Im not bothered about us, I just cant help but think of my brother and feel awful that he has done nothing and there was such love between him and my grandad, I just feel angry that he has been cut out by her.
Is there anything I can do to rectify this? Or should I just leave it?

[Kati]

tagging Peridot enaid

[enaid]

Hi and welcome, firstly there may have been no need for probate if no property was involved and as each bank has it's own rules on probate it sounds like this is the case her.
If you know the bank (off the card you found) visit the website and it will tell you what there limits and rules are.
Is there no one who can speak to your aunt on your behalf ?

[askyfullofstars]

the limit to the account before probate is 5,000 (the same bank as my mum). However there was significantly more than this as I found some statements with my mums stuff, but I shredded them.

[enaid]

Well if you are sure of that amount, because all of the big banks have limits far higher than that for instance Lloyds is £50,000 . If it is £5,000 then probate would be needed . Also if your mum and aunt had an LPA or a third party mandate it would cease to be in place when your grandad died.

[askyfullofstars]

I remember it was 5k as my mum had quite a bit more but not as much as above and they said that anything over 5k would need probate.
Im wondering now if maybe she moved the money before he died (he and my mum had been ill for some time)

[enaid]

In that case probate would have had to be got before the bank would release the money, that is of course they were informed of his death before the account was emptied so to speak.
If you have searched the probate and found nothing then that can't have happened as the will would have become public too.
The only person who knows what has been left and how it should have been divided is your aunt,unless the witnesses your grandads neighbours read it by chance.
Was it your aunt who paid for the funeral and covered any debt for your grandad? this should have come out of the estate.

[askyfullofstars]

"Was it your aunt who paid for the funeral and covered any debt for your grandad? this should have come out of the estate"
I assume so, as just after my mum died she was screaming at me down the phone that my mum still had my grandads rent card and she needed it to take to the Council so I needed to find it NOW" this was less than a week after my mum died. I found it and gave it to her.

[Peridot]

Hi askyfullofstars,

How upsetting for you and unnecessary when you're trying to come to terms with the loss of your mother too.
It is a difficult one, as Enaid says most banks have far higher amounts before they insist on seeing a Grant of Probate. £5k does seem rather a small amount. Do bear in mind if the funeral was paid by the estate then this may have reduced the account balance by several thousand pounds which could have reduced the balance quite considerably?

The other thing that may have happened is the account was a joint account rather than just having other signatories? In which case it would automatically pass to the survivor (your Aunt in this instance) if they were joint names on the account. Your Aunt may have closed the account and placed the funds into an executors account pending dealing with the estate?

It may also be that your grandfather changed his Will? From your post it is not clear whether he had the mental capacity to do so. Although it appears that probate has not been needed in any event. If he had capacity he could of course do this at any time and no-one would necessarily be aware, as we do not have a centralised register of Wills in this country.

Unfortunately none of this helps you find out what has happened to his estate. Have you tried writing to your Aunt, asking what is happening with the estate as you were aware your brother was due an inheritance, maybe just to gauge what is going on, if she responds.

Did your brother know he may have been a beneficiary under your grandfather's Will? Would he be in a position to deal with this? Can he obtain any advice about what rights or potential claim he may or may not have over his grandfather's estate? The main issue will of course be the cost if he was able to show that he had sufficient standing to make a claim. This would be things such as receiving regular money from his grandfather or did he make regular payments on your brother's benefit?

It is a difficult situation particularly if the estate is not particularly large, as the cost of bringing any claim could be significant and potentially wipe out a significant chunk of the estate, leaving less to be distributed. Without knowing the value of the assets it is very difficult to establish whether a claim would be worth pursuing, but it may be worth your brother contacting a probate specialist for some advice on the options available to him. He may be able to find a free half hour appointment or reduced fee initial appointment.