Civil Enforcement Ltd Letter Before Action - how to respond?

[GrumpyOldCar]

Hi all,

I've had a Letter Before Action from Civil Enforcement Ltd for an incident in a car park in 2014. Can someone please advise on how to proceed?

I've scoured many forums and postings to find and draft a response but it all gets confusing to me and I want my responses to be as impactful as possible, from what I've seen of peoples drafts, you guys are able to spot the smallest mistakes in their correspondence and that helps a lot!

Please find attached a PDF of the original penalty and the Letter before Action they've sent.

What is interesting from current events is that two days before they sent the Letter Before Action, Mr Michael Schwartz of their Legal Team was suspended for five years (With a five year suspension on his suspension :tinysmile_cry_t http://parking-prankster.blogspot.co....html?spref=tw

Also see http://www.bucksfreepress.co.uk/news...arking_charge/

where the same Car Park and company where my ticket was issued failed to prove that a £60 ticket (Reduced amount on original ticket) was a genuine pre-estimate of loss on a 20p ticket.

Please advise how I should go forward if you can, any amount of help is greatly appreciated. I'm aware I only have 14 days to respond but I'm not sure whether I am giving them my response yet or if I am requesting that they follow Practice Direction properly before I respond.

Thank you all muchly,

GrumpyOldCar

[mystery1]

Re: Civil Enforcement Ltd Letter Before Action - how to respond?

I'll back to you when i'm not working later this week.

M1

[ostell]

Re: Civil Enforcement Ltd Letter Before Action - how to respond?

From reading between the lines it looks as though there has been other letters. The PCN you posted showed that there was no mention of POFA and therefore there is no keeper liability, only the driver can be held liable. Has the driver been identified at all?

[GrumpyOldCar]

Re: Civil Enforcement Ltd Letter Before Action - how to respond?

From reading between the lines it looks as though there has been other letters. The PCN you posted showed that there was no mention of POFA and therefore there is no keeper liability, only the driver can be held liable. Has the driver been identified at all?

This seems to be all I have. I hadn't responded and so there is no driver liability. I posted the original PCN because I had seen similar ones being identified on Pepipoo as not being POFA compliant and when threatened with SRA and BPA complaints regarding this non compatibility with POFA, they seemed to back off.

[GrumpyOldCar]

Re: Civil Enforcement Ltd Letter Before Action - how to respond?

Also of note, there are pictures captured on Google Street view from July 2014. These show the Civil Enforcement parking signs, but they are under a tree branch and to read them I'd have to stop in the middle of a road and read from the opposite side. I'm going to swoop down there today to confirm sign locations. See the location here https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.62...7i13312!8i6656

[GrumpyOldCar]

Re: Civil Enforcement Ltd Letter Before Action - how to respond?

Blank post, ignore, don't know how to delete!

[GrumpyOldCar]

Re: Civil Enforcement Ltd Letter Before Action - how to respond?

Is Mystery1 out there? I'm just looking at my PCN and they do seem to mention keeper liability in the small print, so is it then POFA 2012 compliant? My main issue was whether or not to respond to this letter with its draft particulars or wait until they send the actual particulars where I can possibly call them out on their non compliance with Practice Direction. So do I just stay silent for now? No acknowledgement?

Also as this incident was back in 2014 and we have multiple drivers who could have been driving that day but none of us remembers, what happens?

[mystery1]

Re: Civil Enforcement Ltd Letter Before Action - how to respond?

Edit to suit






Dear Civil enforcement limited,


I write in response to your final notice which i take to be a letter before action dated 11th October 2016, the contents of which are noted.






As the pre action protocols expect us to exchange sufficient information to understand each others position please forward to myself a picture of the signs at the location as well as the operators contract which allows them to operate at the site (or indeed confirmation they own the land in question).




As well as the information already requested please answer the following questions :-




What contravention gives a cause of action ?




Who contravened your rules, the driver or the keeper ?




How is the £140 made up ?




Not only will this information help comply with the pre action protocols it will also help achieve the over riding objective.


In order to clarify matters from my side, i was not the driver at the time and i believe you have not fulfilled the statutory requirements of PoFA 2012




Having done some research on your claims i request that if you ignore my requests for information that your claim complies with








CPR 16








Contents of the claim form
16.2
(1) The claim form must –
(a) contain a concise statement of the nature of the claim




Contents of the particulars of claim
16.4
(1) Particulars of claim must include –
(a) a concise statement of the facts on which the claimant relies;












Practice direction 16








Other matters to be included in particulars of claim








7.5 Where a claim is based upon an agreement by conduct, the particulars of claim must specify the conduct relied on and state by whom, when and where the acts constituting the conduct were done.








Practice direction 22








I await your response.




Yours sincerely










Send via email if possible.








M1

[GrumpyOldCar]

Re: Civil Enforcement Ltd Letter Before Action - how to respond?

Thanks M1, I've seen you bouncing around post to post on these forums and you may have heard it a million times but I appreciate the time you've taken. I'll keep you posted on what they reply with.

[GrumpyOldCar]

Re: Civil Enforcement Ltd Letter Before Action - how to respond?

The Google Street view image I posted earlier is dated a month before before the contravention took place. The signs have since changed, would they then have to provide proof of sign placement from closer to the period of the contravention?

[mystery1]

Re: Civil Enforcement Ltd Letter Before Action - how to respond?

It's up to them to prove their case. If they submit photos that are after the date of the incident then you could counter with the google ones and see what the judge thinks.

M1