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Court for no insurance on a vehicle i sold 5 months before charge. Please help

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  • #31
    Re: Court for no insurance on a vehicle i sold 5 months before charge. Please help

    Yes that would amount to delivery. The whole thread is becoming too complicated when there is several case law out there which points in your favour. As I said previously, write to the DVLA with your intent on defending the case in full (if that's what you would like to do) and point out that you will be relying on s.7 of the Interpretation Act, there is no legal obligation to contact the DVLA once you have posted the notice of change of registered keeper and you will be relying on the numerous case law that has already decided such matters such as Peck, Kennedy etc.

    There's no need for any complex arguments, there is 4 or 5 cases across the country in which all judges have agreed, so even though they are county court level, it would be difficult to ignore them. If it was one case sure there could be some leeway in going against it, but the fact there are several, is very persuasive.
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    DISCLAIMER: ANYTHING I POST ON THIS FORUM SHOULD NOT BE CONSTRUED AS GIVING LEGAL ADVICE. I DO NOT ASSUME RESPONSIBILITY NOR DO I ACCEPT ANY LIABILITY AND THE USE OF MY CONTENT FOR YOUR OWN PURPOSE IS SOLELY AT YOUR OWN RISK. YOU SHOULD ALWAYS SEEK INDEPENDENT LEGAL ADVICE BY GOING TO THE LAW SOCIETY'S FIND A SOLICITOR OR CONTACT YOUR LOCAL CITIZEN'S ADVICE BUREAU.

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    • #32
      Re: Court for no insurance on a vehicle i sold 5 months before charge. Please help

      Just a quick update, I'm back in court this thursday 14th-04-2016 and i'm a bit scared this time :/
      the latest letter i recieved. any advice? should i appeal the case to crown court if found guilty?
      Attached Files

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      • #33
        Re: Court for no insurance on a vehicle i sold 5 months before charge. Please help

        Originally posted by jamieb22222 View Post
        Just a quick update, I'm back in court this thursday 14th-04-2016 and i'm a bit scared this time :/
        the latest letter i recieved. any advice? should i appeal the case to crown court if found guilty?
        Is it just the £50 fine or is it points on your licence as well? It appears Bodmin Magistrates are just trying to scare you into settling out of court.

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        • #34
          Re: Court for no insurance on a vehicle i sold 5 months before charge. Please help

          No the fine was £50 if I payed within 10 days which I didn't so it can back to £100 now. I don't there is any points involved

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          • #35
            Re: Court for no insurance on a vehicle i sold 5 months before charge. Please help

            Hi Jamie,

            It would be worth arguing and appealing your case as there are several case law as outlined which could help your case and doing a witness statement or even an affadavit may help you case. I appreciate it is tomorrow so the question is whether or not you want to settle or defend the matter but f you are defending you really do need to have your papers in order and not get sidetracked. This means referring to the relevant case law and arguments and discussions made by the judges which help your case. I'm struggling to properly read the letter they sent you but not sure why they would want an indemnity form the insurance co as it is not required.
            Click here to check out my list of templates

            DISCLAIMER: ANYTHING I POST ON THIS FORUM SHOULD NOT BE CONSTRUED AS GIVING LEGAL ADVICE. I DO NOT ASSUME RESPONSIBILITY NOR DO I ACCEPT ANY LIABILITY AND THE USE OF MY CONTENT FOR YOUR OWN PURPOSE IS SOLELY AT YOUR OWN RISK. YOU SHOULD ALWAYS SEEK INDEPENDENT LEGAL ADVICE BY GOING TO THE LAW SOCIETY'S FIND A SOLICITOR OR CONTACT YOUR LOCAL CITIZEN'S ADVICE BUREAU.

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            • #36
              Re: Court for no insurance on a vehicle i sold 5 months before charge. Please help

              I'm just on the phone to my insurance company, they've said i transfered the insurance over from this vehicle to my new one on 25-03-2015. which is 6 days after selling the car. i'm getting this sent to me via email and printing it off. hopefully this will help my case

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              • #37
                Re: Court for no insurance on a vehicle i sold 5 months before charge. Please help

                Yes, you can use that to show that you took steps to change over your insurance and also argue at the same time sent off the notice to the DVLA. In addition you also need to point out to the court that s.7 of the Interpretation Act in requires you to merely send it by first class post. Despite what the DVLA says you have no legal obligation to contact them if you have not received anything back and this has been acknowledged by the DVLA on numerous occasions. A FOI request around 2013 indicated that the DVLA does actually lose post. Fire off the cases below in your defence and put the onus on the DVLA to argue:

                DVLA v James Collins
                DVLA v Duncan Peck

                DVLA v O’Sullivan, Staines County Court October 2009
                DVLA vs Kennedy - case is similar position to you where was convicted but when Kennedy decided to appeal to the crown court and the DVLA offered no evidence and got an earful from the judge for doing so and wasting court time and resources.

                As long as you get all that in then it should cast doubt on the DVLA being successful. Point out to the court that the DVLA so far to date (& within my knowledge) has failed to win a successful case, and when a case is successful they decide to withdraw as in the case of kennedy when it is appealed because they know that they will have poor evidence and chance of success.

                It may also be worth hunting down the solicitor who will be prosecuting your case at court before your trial starts and making him or her aware that you will be relying on those cases and intend to appeal if unsuccessful (even if you arenn't sure just yet, its all about being confident) and at that point they may just drop the case.
                Click here to check out my list of templates

                DISCLAIMER: ANYTHING I POST ON THIS FORUM SHOULD NOT BE CONSTRUED AS GIVING LEGAL ADVICE. I DO NOT ASSUME RESPONSIBILITY NOR DO I ACCEPT ANY LIABILITY AND THE USE OF MY CONTENT FOR YOUR OWN PURPOSE IS SOLELY AT YOUR OWN RISK. YOU SHOULD ALWAYS SEEK INDEPENDENT LEGAL ADVICE BY GOING TO THE LAW SOCIETY'S FIND A SOLICITOR OR CONTACT YOUR LOCAL CITIZEN'S ADVICE BUREAU.

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                • #38
                  Re: Court for no insurance on a vehicle i sold 5 months before charge. Please help

                  Thought I'd update this thread as I've been to court today and was found Not Guilty! Thank you so much to everyone on here who has guided me, without your input and knowledge of the law i would have buckled at the first letter and given dvla another fine from an innocent driver. you guys rule! :goodjob:

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                  • #39
                    Re: Court for no insurance on a vehicle i sold 5 months before charge. Please help

                    Congratulations - well done for standing up for yourself ! [MENTION=71570]R0b[/MENTION] [MENTION=77627]Openlaw15[/MENTION]
                    I'm away till the 24th August - please contact @Kati if needed

                    “We may not win by protesting, but if we don’t protest we will lose. If we stand up to them, there is always a chance we will win.” Hetty Bower

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                    • #40
                      Re: Court for no insurance on a vehicle i sold 5 months before charge. Please help

                      Well done!

                      It would be helpful to others if you could give a brief summary of what happened today - what you relied on e.g the case law and/or your insurance letter and anything the magistrates or the DVLA said in particular about the trial.
                      Click here to check out my list of templates

                      DISCLAIMER: ANYTHING I POST ON THIS FORUM SHOULD NOT BE CONSTRUED AS GIVING LEGAL ADVICE. I DO NOT ASSUME RESPONSIBILITY NOR DO I ACCEPT ANY LIABILITY AND THE USE OF MY CONTENT FOR YOUR OWN PURPOSE IS SOLELY AT YOUR OWN RISK. YOU SHOULD ALWAYS SEEK INDEPENDENT LEGAL ADVICE BY GOING TO THE LAW SOCIETY'S FIND A SOLICITOR OR CONTACT YOUR LOCAL CITIZEN'S ADVICE BUREAU.

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                      • #41
                        Re: Court for no insurance on a vehicle i sold 5 months before charge. Please help

                        Ok, so i turned up to court for a 2nd time but this time was different, the prosecutor from dvla did not meet me before going into the court room to try settle it out of court with a fine. "I'm guessing this was because i had sent dvla a letter stating that I'm fully aware of the interpretation act and the Paul kennedy case and that i will be taking this matter to crown court if found guilty". I head into the court room and swear and the oath that what i'm saying is the truth. The prosecutor from dvla read out his statement and read the interpretation act to the magistrates telling them that Jamie (Me) is aware of the interpretation act because i had sent dvla a letter. he then went on to say that i should have read the small print on the back of the v5c/3 where it says about receiving an acknowledgement letter confirming i had sold the car. He then pointed out that on the copy of the v5c/3 the motor trader had only put his postcode and not the full address and after investigations found that there was several buildings on the road. I then told the magistrates that there is only 2 buildings on that road, the first one is Rspca center and the second is the farm in which the motor traders forecourt is situated. i then showed the magistrates a copy of the v5c/3 and a letter from my insurance company confirming that i had transferred my insurance over from the offending car to my new car 10 days after sale. the magistrates then spoke to the legal advisor and told me that they find me Not guilty.

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                        • #42
                          Re: Court for no insurance on a vehicle i sold 5 months before charge. Please help

                          Originally posted by jamieb22222 View Post
                          Ok, so i turned up to court for a 2nd time but this time was different, the prosecutor from dvla did not meet me before going into the court room to try settle it out of court with a fine. "I'm guessing this was because i had sent dvla a letter stating that I'm fully aware of the interpretation act and the Paul kennedy case and that i will be taking this matter to crown court if found guilty". I head into the court room and swear and the oath that what i'm saying is the truth. The prosecutor from dvla read out his statement and read the interpretation act to the magistrates telling them that Jamie (Me) is aware of the interpretation act because i had sent dvla a letter. he then went on to say that i should have read the small print on the back of the v5c/3 where it says about receiving an acknowledgement letter confirming i had sold the car. He then pointed out that on the copy of the v5c/3 the motor trader had only put his postcode and not the full address and after investigations found that there was several buildings on the road. I then told the magistrates that there is only 2 buildings on that road, the first one is Rspca center and the second is the farm in which the motor traders forecourt is situated. i then showed the magistrates a copy of the v5c/3 and a letter from my insurance company confirming that i had transferred my insurance over from the offending car to my new car 10 days after sale. the magistrates then spoke to the legal advisor and told me that they find me Not guilty.
                          Brilliant Jamie! Well done you!

                          So reading between the lines your defence was/ is also in line with the legislation it cites for the defence. So, if anyone else were in this position now they need to prove 1) their insurance ended when the car was transferred to another as per the statute; 2) also under the Interpretation Act the relevant letter to DVLA is considered delivered upon post; 3) the V5c/3 also proves transfer of ownership, details of the relevant vehicle (for insurances purposes, ie identification of the car) and the dates of ownership and transferred ownership, as per the statutory defence. It also tells us that not reading the tiny writing at the back of the V5C/3 is not persuasive to convict in general or by itself. So these things seem to be the heart of the defence. However, those County Court cases are also useful apparently for persuasive power where required.

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                          • #43
                            Re: Court for no insurance on a vehicle i sold 5 months before charge. Please help

                            Just to add to OL's post, even though you didn't argue it, the DVLA had no grounds to argue that you should have read the small print on the letter about receiving an acknowledgement letter from the DVLA. The judges in the cases I cited have made it clear there is no legal requirement for someone to contact the DVLA one you have sent the letter to notify, again that has been acknowledged in a public statement before by the DVLA themselves.

                            It just goes to show that if you have good grounds to say you did notify the DVLA then that will show in court. As OL has said, confirmation from your insurer that you updated your vehicle details promptly is an extra piece of evidence to show that if you took steps to notify your insurer then you would have probably notified the DVLA. It is then down to the DVLA to prove you did not.
                            Click here to check out my list of templates

                            DISCLAIMER: ANYTHING I POST ON THIS FORUM SHOULD NOT BE CONSTRUED AS GIVING LEGAL ADVICE. I DO NOT ASSUME RESPONSIBILITY NOR DO I ACCEPT ANY LIABILITY AND THE USE OF MY CONTENT FOR YOUR OWN PURPOSE IS SOLELY AT YOUR OWN RISK. YOU SHOULD ALWAYS SEEK INDEPENDENT LEGAL ADVICE BY GOING TO THE LAW SOCIETY'S FIND A SOLICITOR OR CONTACT YOUR LOCAL CITIZEN'S ADVICE BUREAU.

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                            • #44
                              Re: Court for no insurance on a vehicle i sold 5 months before charge. Please help

                              I have one more question please

                              I was asked about travel expenses for the 2 days which was £32 total and the court agreed to pay that But i was not asked about loss of earnings which was £150.64.

                              I know i should have asked while i was in the court room but i was too buzzing from being found not guilty that i forgot to ask lol



                              Could anyone please advise on how i could make a claim for loss of earnings?

                              Comment

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