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DVLA 'Failure to Insure' penalty on VT'd car...

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  • DVLA 'Failure to Insure' penalty on VT'd car...

    Morning all

    Hopefully someone can help...

    In late December 2015 I received a letter from AskMid advising that the insurance on my previous vehicle had lapsed, and it was a legal requirement for vehicles to either be insured or SORN'd. I thought this was slightly strange, as the vehicle had been returned to the finance company on the 11th September 2015.
    When the vehicle was collected by the finance company agents, the appropriate yellow slip was completed and posted via 1st class mail to the DVLA the following day.

    As I was slightly concerned that the vehicle was still apparently in my name, I sent the following letter to the DVLA on the 11th January:
    Dear Sir or Madam

    RE: Transfer of FH62 EVV to a motor trader

    I write to notify you of the transfer of my vehicle to a motor trader, in addition to having previously provided the V5C/3 to yourselves.

    The details are:
    Reg: FH62 EVV
    Make/Model: Citroen DS3 DSport Plus 1.8 eHDI
    Transfer date: 11th September 2015
    New keeper: Aston Barclay Westbury, Brook Lane, Westbury, Wiltshire, BA13 4EN


    Please can you amend your records to reflect the above.
    However, on the 19th January I received a 'Failure to Insure' penalty notice from the DVLA, for a vehicle that I returned to the finance company on the 11th September last year.
    They are claiming that I am still the registered keeper, and as the vehicle insurance and tax lapsed that month, they were issuing a 100 fixed penalty, reduced to 50 if paid within 30 days.

    As I have no intention of paying a fine on a vehicle that I no longer own, and following research on here and several other sites, I sent the following letter to the DVLA on the 4th Feb via 1st Class recorded delivery.
    Dear Sir or Madam

    Ref: Failure to Insure letter dated 19th January 2016

    I write in relation to your letter as above, and to notify you that I will not be paying for a fine for a vehicle that I am no longer the registered keeper of.

    The vehicle was transferred to a motor trader on 11/09/2015, and the completed V5C/3 slip was posted to the DVLA via 1st class post on 12/09/2015.
    Ive enclosed a confirmation letter from the vehicle finance company Citroen Financial Services confirming that the vehicle was being collected by their agents on the date above.

    To confirm, the motor trader details are:
    Aston Barclay Westbury, Brook Lane, Westbury, Wiltshire, BA13 4EN

    Also enclosed with this letter is a copy of a letter that I sent to DVLA on the 11th January, following receipt of a letter from askMid informing me that I was still the registered keeper.

    As per Section 7 of the Interpretation Act 1987, the notice of transfer to a motor trader was served when the V5C/3 document was posted to the DVLA on 12/09/2015.

    I therefore request that you update your records with regards to this vehicle, and remove any record of the offence.


    Yours faithfully
    I'd hoped that would be the end of it, however I received a follow up letter from the DVLA on Friday, as follows.
    Thank you for your reply to the fixed penalty notice.

    It is now a legal requirement for a vehicle to be licensed and insured at all times unless a Statutory Off Road Notification (SORN) is in force. As the Registered Keeper you are responsible for this. Continuious Insruance Enforcement (CIE) was launched in early 2011, and infomraiton is currently available online at www.gov.uk and www.mib.org.uk.

    The fixed penalty was introduced to help reduce insurance evasion. The Registered Keeper continues to be liable for insuring the vehicle or making a SORN until the DVLA is notification of disposal and an Acknowledgment Letter has been received in confirmation. An Acknowledgement Letter issued after the offence date would not be accepted as mitigation.

    Consequently, you remain liable for the 100 fixed penalty. Only payments received by 20/02/2016 are at the reduced rate of 50.

    If you wish to pay by debit/credit card please telephone the above number. Please note that this line is for payment only and you will not be able to iscuss your case. Alternatively, payment can be accepted by cheque or postal order made payable to DVLA. This payment should be returned with a copy of this letter, with the vehicle registration written on the back. Instalments cannot be accepted. If payment is not received, the Agency will take court action against you.

    Should you need to write to us, please quote the registration number of the vehicle.

    Yours sincerely

    Enforcement Office
    So they basically ignored everything I wrote in my response, and are still trying to get me to pay a fine...

    Any advise on how best to respond?

    Regards
    Gavin
    Tags: None

  • #2
    Re: DVLA 'Failure to Insure' penalty on VT'd car...

    Morning,

    take a look at this thread http://www.legalbeagles.info/forums/...highlight=DVLA

    and this thread may be of use also http://legalbeagles.info/forums/show...-Summnons-SORN

    if you still need further help post back and will try to help you.
    Click here to check out my list of templates

    DISCLAIMER: ANYTHING I POST ON THIS FORUM SHOULD NOT BE CONSTRUED AS GIVING LEGAL ADVICE. I DO NOT ASSUME RESPONSIBILITY NOR DO I ACCEPT ANY LIABILITY AND THE USE OF MY CONTENT FOR YOUR OWN PURPOSE IS SOLELY AT YOUR OWN RISK. YOU SHOULD ALWAYS SEEK INDEPENDENT LEGAL ADVICE BY GOING TO THE LAW SOCIETY'S FIND A SOLICITOR OR CONTACT YOUR LOCAL CITIZEN'S ADVICE BUREAU.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: DVLA 'Failure to Insure' penalty on VT'd car...

      Originally posted by R0b View Post
      Morning,

      take a look at this thread http://www.legalbeagles.info/forums/...highlight=DVLA

      and this thread may be of use also http://legalbeagles.info/forums/show...-Summnons-SORN

      if you still need further help post back and will try to help you.
      Rob

      Cheers for the response.

      Will have a read through the links and come back with any questions...

      Cheers
      Gavin

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: DVLA 'Failure to Insure' penalty on VT'd car...

        Originally posted by fatmcgav View Post
        Morning all

        Hopefully someone can help...

        In late December 2015 I received a letter from AskMid advising that the insurance on my previous vehicle had lapsed, and it was a legal requirement for vehicles to either be insured or SORN'd. I thought this was slightly strange, as the vehicle had been returned to the finance company on the 11th September 2015.
        When the vehicle was collected by the finance company agents, the appropriate yellow slip was completed and posted via 1st class mail to the DVLA the following day.

        As I was slightly concerned that the vehicle was still apparently in my name, I sent the following letter to the DVLA on the 11th January:


        However, on the 19th January I received a 'Failure to Insure' penalty notice from the DVLA, for a vehicle that I returned to the finance company on the 11th September last year.
        They are claiming that I am still the registered keeper, and as the vehicle insurance and tax lapsed that month, they were issuing a 100 fixed penalty, reduced to 50 if paid within 30 days.

        As I have no intention of paying a fine on a vehicle that I no longer own, and following research on here and several other sites, I sent the following letter to the DVLA on the 4th Feb via 1st Class recorded delivery.


        I'd hoped that would be the end of it, however I received a follow up letter from the DVLA on Friday, as follows.


        So they basically ignored everything I wrote in my response, and are still trying to get me to pay a fine...

        Any advise on how best to respond?

        Regards
        Gavin
        If the penalty has been registered for no insurance then ask for a hearing to challenge the fixed penalty. You need a statutory declaration 'that you did not have ownership of the vehicle at the time as ownership had been transferred at that point' is the only way to stop magistrates' action. Complete part B of this form.

        http://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/pro...rtp003-eng.pdf

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: DVLA 'Failure to Insure' penalty on VT'd car...

          Originally posted by Openlaw15 View Post
          If the penalty has been registered for no insurance then ask for a hearing to challenge the fixed penalty. You need a statutory declaration 'that you did not have ownership of the vehicle at the time as ownership had been transferred at that point' is the only way to stop magistrates' action. Complete part B of this form.

          http://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/pro...rtp003-eng.pdf

          I don't think this applies to SORN issues, your link is a stat dec in relation to road traffic offences ... s.73(2) refers to penalties which relate to notices fixed to a vehicle. vehicles must have continuous registration and falls under the Vehicle Excise Registration Act 1994 and the Road Vehicle (Registration and Licencing) Regulations 2002.

          So I don't think what you refer to is applicable namely that a person does not normally receive a fixed penalty notice on their vehicle.
          Click here to check out my list of templates

          DISCLAIMER: ANYTHING I POST ON THIS FORUM SHOULD NOT BE CONSTRUED AS GIVING LEGAL ADVICE. I DO NOT ASSUME RESPONSIBILITY NOR DO I ACCEPT ANY LIABILITY AND THE USE OF MY CONTENT FOR YOUR OWN PURPOSE IS SOLELY AT YOUR OWN RISK. YOU SHOULD ALWAYS SEEK INDEPENDENT LEGAL ADVICE BY GOING TO THE LAW SOCIETY'S FIND A SOLICITOR OR CONTACT YOUR LOCAL CITIZEN'S ADVICE BUREAU.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: DVLA 'Failure to Insure' penalty on VT'd car...

            Originally posted by R0b View Post
            I don't think this applies to SORN issues, your link is a stat dec in relation to road traffic offences ... s.73(2) refers to penalties which relate to notices fixed to a vehicle. vehicles must have continuous registration and falls under the Vehicle Excise Registration Act 1994 and the Road Vehicle (Registration and Licencing) Regulations 2002.

            So I don't think what you refer to is applicable namely that a person does not normally receive a fixed penalty notice on their vehicle.
            Rob,

            No this is a statutory declaration under the relevant 1988 traffic Act that needs to be done. Once a penalty has been registered it automatically goes to court unless the person says he wants to challenge (within 36 days of the penalty being registered), in court or pays the amount in due time. A SORN is different, applying to what should have been done at the time, but once it has been escalated to the Traffic Enforcement Agency registration point, a SORN seemingly has no applicability. Hence Gavin's recent communication.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: DVLA 'Failure to Insure' penalty on VT'd car...

              Originally posted by R0b View Post
              I don't think this applies to SORN issues, your link is a stat dec in relation to road traffic offences ... s.73(2) refers to penalties which relate to notices fixed to a vehicle. vehicles must have continuous registration and falls under the Vehicle Excise Registration Act 1994 and the Road Vehicle (Registration and Licencing) Regulations 2002.

              So I don't think what you refer to is applicable namely that a person does not normally receive a fixed penalty notice on their vehicle.
              TEC, FAQ:

              ""What happens when I file a valid Statutory Declaration/Witness Statement?

              TEC will revoke the Order for Recovery. This does not mean that the penalty charge has been cancelled. The Local Authority may continue to pursue the charge and will contact you if it intends to take further action.
              What happens if I do not respond?

              If you do not file a valid Statutory Declaration/Witness Statement with TEC within the specified time, the Local Authority may enforce the Charge by requesting a warrant. Once the warrant has been authorised by TEC, the Local Authority will employ private bailiffs to execute the warrant."

              https://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/no...sked-questions

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: DVLA 'Failure to Insure' penalty on VT'd car...

                A driver who fails to insure or SORN the vehicle will get a late licencing penalty (LLP) under the act and regulations in my previous post.

                For clarity s.73 relates to a fixed penalty notice on a vehicle. The DVLA do not affix penalty notices to the vehicle, their database will flag up any vehicles which have not been insured in the correct time and an automatic letter will be sent by post to the offending driver.

                For clarity, s.51 of the same act states that an offence under this act is a fixed penalty set out in column 1 of Schedule 3. If you look at Schedule 3 the only thing that comes close to what you are saying is driving without insurance (s.143 RTA). As he does not have the vehicle he cannot be given a fixed penalty notice for this.

                You have referred to a section which states local authority - the DVLA is not a local authority and so the Stat Dec does not apply. If you look into the link you have provided, it continuously talks about local authority.

                So going back to my other post, this is a penalty under completely different act and the Stat Dec will be useless to use. I'll bet this matter hasn't even gone to court yet because the DVLA will not take it to court where someone is going to dispute it. But by all means, OP can complete a Stat Dec for that and look like a complete fool when the DVLA argue that it has no relevance as LLP's do not come under the RTOA but another Act altogether.
                Click here to check out my list of templates

                DISCLAIMER: ANYTHING I POST ON THIS FORUM SHOULD NOT BE CONSTRUED AS GIVING LEGAL ADVICE. I DO NOT ASSUME RESPONSIBILITY NOR DO I ACCEPT ANY LIABILITY AND THE USE OF MY CONTENT FOR YOUR OWN PURPOSE IS SOLELY AT YOUR OWN RISK. YOU SHOULD ALWAYS SEEK INDEPENDENT LEGAL ADVICE BY GOING TO THE LAW SOCIETY'S FIND A SOLICITOR OR CONTACT YOUR LOCAL CITIZEN'S ADVICE BUREAU.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: DVLA 'Failure to Insure' penalty on VT'd car...

                  Originally posted by fatmcgav View Post
                  Morning all

                  Hopefully someone can help...

                  In late December 2015 I received a letter from AskMid advising that the insurance on my previous vehicle had lapsed, and it was a legal requirement for vehicles to either be insured or SORN'd. I thought this was slightly strange, as the vehicle had been returned to the finance company on the 11th September 2015.
                  When the vehicle was collected by the finance company agents, the appropriate yellow slip was completed and posted via 1st class mail to the DVLA the following day.

                  As I was slightly concerned that the vehicle was still apparently in my name, I sent the following letter to the DVLA on the 11th January:


                  However, on the 19th January I received a 'Failure to Insure' penalty notice from the DVLA, for a vehicle that I returned to the finance company on the 11th September last year.
                  They are claiming that I am still the registered keeper, and as the vehicle insurance and tax lapsed that month, they were issuing a 100 fixed penalty, reduced to 50 if paid within 30 days.

                  As I have no intention of paying a fine on a vehicle that I no longer own, and following research on here and several other sites, I sent the following letter to the DVLA on the 4th Feb via 1st Class recorded delivery.


                  I'd hoped that would be the end of it, however I received a follow up letter from the DVLA on Friday, as follows.


                  So they basically ignored everything I wrote in my response, and are still trying to get me to pay a fine...

                  Any advise on how best to respond?

                  Regards
                  Gavin
                  Gavin, my advice is call the Traffic Enforcement Centre (TEC) urgently and tell them you would like to submit a statutory declaration. If you do not make this legal declaration within 36 days of the fixed penalty being registered then the matter will go to a magistrate's court. I think once you do this for your situation especially the relevant TEC officer can inform the magistrates of the situation and have the penalty (100) revoked (cancelled) without having to attend. The Criminal Procedure Rules indicate that you can do this at a magistrates court, or TEC say it can be done at Magistrates too, as per the link below. I believe the form is pe003 that you need to complete. No matter what, please to this urgently.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: DVLA 'Failure to Insure' penalty on VT'd car...

                    Originally posted by R0b View Post
                    A driver who fails to insure or SORN the vehicle will get a late licencing penalty (LLP) under the act and regulations in my previous post.

                    For clarity s.73 relates to a fixed penalty notice on a vehicle. The DVLA do not affix penalty notices to the vehicle, their database will flag up any vehicles which have not been insured in the correct time and an automatic letter will be sent by post to the offending driver.

                    For clarity, s.51 of the same act states that an offence under this act is a fixed penalty set out in column 1 of Schedule 3. If you look at Schedule 3 the only thing that comes close to what you are saying is driving without insurance (s.143 RTA). As he does not have the vehicle he cannot be given a fixed penalty notice for this.

                    You have referred to a section which states local authority - the DVLA is not a local authority and so the Stat Dec does not apply. If you look into the link you have provided, it continuously talks about local authority.

                    So going back to my other post, this is a penalty under completely different act and the Stat Dec will be useless to use. I'll bet this matter hasn't even gone to court yet because the DVLA will not take it to court where someone is going to dispute it. But by all means, OP can complete a Stat Dec for that and look like a complete fool when the DVLA argue that it has no relevance as LLP's do not come under the RTOA but another Act altogether.
                    Rob, the penalty has been registered so it has gone past the DVLA point. DVLA have had the penalty registered with TEC so the SORN is no longer applicable. This is a criminal law and criminal procedure matter as it is criminal offence to not have insurance. The 1994 Act you cited refers to DVLA powers and their statutory instrument SORN law (ie secondary law, not primary). A statutory declaration is a legal defence in criminal courts both under Criminal Procedure Rules and the TROA 1988, which relates to traffic offences.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: DVLA 'Failure to Insure' penalty on VT'd car...

                      Originally posted by Openlaw15 View Post
                      Rob, the penalty has been registered so it has gone past the DLVA point. DVLA have had the penalty registered with TEC so the SORN is no longer applicable. The 1994 Act you cited refers to DVLA powers and their statutory instrument SORN law (ie secondary law, not primary). A statutory declaration is a legal defence in criminal courts both under Criminal Procedure Rules and the TROA 1988, which relates to traffic offences.
                      Please tell me within the RTOA the section you refer to that states a person receives a fixed penalty for failing to insure the vehicle or a registering a SORN.

                      a Stat Dec is used where the person has been convicted of the offence by a magistrates. The effect of the Stat Dec is that the conviction is void but the penalty is not. The Stat Dec is normally used in similar situations where a person would like to set aside a civil judgment.

                      If you can provide the exact section and wording which you refer to then I will accept you are right. The fact that the Stat Dec specifies s.73(2) is a huge indication that it has no relevance to LLP's
                      Click here to check out my list of templates

                      DISCLAIMER: ANYTHING I POST ON THIS FORUM SHOULD NOT BE CONSTRUED AS GIVING LEGAL ADVICE. I DO NOT ASSUME RESPONSIBILITY NOR DO I ACCEPT ANY LIABILITY AND THE USE OF MY CONTENT FOR YOUR OWN PURPOSE IS SOLELY AT YOUR OWN RISK. YOU SHOULD ALWAYS SEEK INDEPENDENT LEGAL ADVICE BY GOING TO THE LAW SOCIETY'S FIND A SOLICITOR OR CONTACT YOUR LOCAL CITIZEN'S ADVICE BUREAU.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: DVLA 'Failure to Insure' penalty on VT'd car...

                        Originally posted by R0b View Post
                        Please tell me within the RTOA the section you refer to that states a person receives a fixed penalty for failing to insure the vehicle or a registering a SORN.

                        a Stat Dec is used where the person has been convicted of the offence by a magistrates. The effect of the Stat Dec is that the conviction is void but the penalty is not. The Stat Dec is normally used in similar situations where a person would like to set aside a civil judgment.

                        If you can provide the exact section and wording which you refer to then I will accept you are right. The fact that the Stat Dec specifies s.73(2) is a huge indication that it has no relevance to LLP's
                        traffic offenders act - it's a criminal jurisdiction so it is magistrates matter and under the 1865 declaration act only a legal declaration will be an adequate defence.
                        Last edited by Amethyst; 22nd February 2016, 11:10:AM. Reason: removed

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: DVLA 'Failure to Insure' penalty on VT'd car...

                          Originally posted by R0b View Post
                          Please tell me within the RTOA the section you refer to that states a person receives a fixed penalty for failing to insure the vehicle or a registering a SORN.

                          a Stat Dec is used where the person has been convicted of the offence by a magistrates. The effect of the Stat Dec is that the conviction is void but the penalty is not. The Stat Dec is normally used in similar situations where a person would like to set aside a civil judgment.

                          If you can provide the exact section and wording which you refer to then I will accept you are right. The fact that the Stat Dec specifies s.73(2) is a huge indication that it has no relevance to LLP's
                          Section, 73 (sub-section 2) RTOA 1988:

                          "2)The statutory declaration must state either—(a)that the person making the declaration did not know of the fixed penalty concerned or of any fixed penalty notice or notice to owner relating to that penalty until he received notice of the registration, or
                          (b)that he was not the owner of the vehicle at the time of the alleged offence of which particulars are given in the relevant notice to owner and that he has a reasonable excuse for failing to comply with that notice, or
                          (c)that he gave notice requesting a hearing in respect of that offence as permitted by the relevant notice to owner before the end of the period allowed for response to that notice."

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: DVLA 'Failure to Insure' penalty on VT'd car...

                            Originally posted by Openlaw15 View Post
                            traffic offenders act - it's a criminal jurisdiction so it is magistrates matter and under the 1865 declaration act only a legal declaration will be an adequate defence.
                            But you haven't pointed out the relevant section to me that stipulates a Stat Dec can be used as a defence for an LLP?
                            Click here to check out my list of templates

                            DISCLAIMER: ANYTHING I POST ON THIS FORUM SHOULD NOT BE CONSTRUED AS GIVING LEGAL ADVICE. I DO NOT ASSUME RESPONSIBILITY NOR DO I ACCEPT ANY LIABILITY AND THE USE OF MY CONTENT FOR YOUR OWN PURPOSE IS SOLELY AT YOUR OWN RISK. YOU SHOULD ALWAYS SEEK INDEPENDENT LEGAL ADVICE BY GOING TO THE LAW SOCIETY'S FIND A SOLICITOR OR CONTACT YOUR LOCAL CITIZEN'S ADVICE BUREAU.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: DVLA 'Failure to Insure' penalty on VT'd car...

                              @Openlaw15 Just so we can put this to bed once and for all.

                              51.— Fixed penalty offences.

                              (1) Any offence in respect of a vehicle under an enactment specified in column 1 of Schedule 3 to this Act is a fixed penalty offence for the purposes of this Part of this Act, but subject to subsection (2) below and to any limitation or exception shown against the enactment in column 2 (where the general nature of the offence is also indicated).
                              Schedule 3 makes no reference to a failure to insure a vehicle, only driving without insurance.

                              s.73: Notices fixed to vehicles: when registration invalid
                              (1) This section applies where—
                              (a) a person who has received notice of the registration,by virtue of section 64(2) of this Act,
                              s.64: Enforcment or proceedings against owner
                              (1) This section applies where—
                              (a) a fixed penalty notice relating to an offence has been fixed to a vehicle under section 62 of this Act,
                              S.62: Fixing notice to vehicles
                              (1) Where on any occasion a constable [or a vehicle examiner ] 1 has reason to believe in the case of any stationary vehicle that a fixed penalty offence is being or has on that occasion been committed in respect of it, he may fix a fixed penalty notice in respect of the offence to the vehicle unless the offence appears to him to involve obligatory endorsement.
                              There seems to be a recurring theme here, that the fixed penalty notice needs to be fixed to a vehicle. The DVLA do not affix penalty notices to vehicles. They sent out penalties in the post in accordance with another Act and regulations as specified.

                              The Stat Dec is made under 73(2) of the RTAO so all of the above applies and the fact that the name of the section makes reference to invalid notices fixed to vehicles cannot make it any clearer. Unless you find anything else which contravenes this I think we can safely say that the Stat Dec is of no use in this situation.

                              My quotes are off because I don't the standard text font for posting lol.
                              Last edited by R0b; 22nd February 2016, 12:08:PM.
                              Click here to check out my list of templates

                              DISCLAIMER: ANYTHING I POST ON THIS FORUM SHOULD NOT BE CONSTRUED AS GIVING LEGAL ADVICE. I DO NOT ASSUME RESPONSIBILITY NOR DO I ACCEPT ANY LIABILITY AND THE USE OF MY CONTENT FOR YOUR OWN PURPOSE IS SOLELY AT YOUR OWN RISK. YOU SHOULD ALWAYS SEEK INDEPENDENT LEGAL ADVICE BY GOING TO THE LAW SOCIETY'S FIND A SOLICITOR OR CONTACT YOUR LOCAL CITIZEN'S ADVICE BUREAU.

                              Comment

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