Son's Speeding/Failure to give information

[CaptainChaos]

Hi guys,

I have been in & out of this brilliant forum a while ago & you helped me defeat a stupid parking fine that was dismissed due to the inefficency of the ParkingEye people.

Now for a new one for advice - I have 20 days to try to help my son (although I think it's futile)!

He is basically a muppet, passed his driving test late last year & within 2 months, got a speeding ticket (already been to court - 35mph in 30 limit - £200 + 3 points), a "Fail to give information relating to identification of the driver" & another speeding offence "35mph in 30 limit" (07/12/2015).

Because he was scared as to what we would say about his immaturity & getting the fines/points within months of getting his licence, he ignored & hid the initial letters, so it ended up with the first speeding offence going to court & getting a £200 fine + 3 points on his licence.

NOW!

He has just received a "Single Justice Procedure Notice" with 2 Charges: 1) Fail to give information relating to the identification of the driver (section 172(3) and 2) Speeding - exceeding 30 miles per hour on restricted road - automatic camera device (section 81(1) & 89(1).

I realise that he is going to lose his licence for some months & get a hefty fine & his insurance will go up a lot, but it would be REALLY helpful to me to let him know WHAT to write on the Notice that he has just received.

Plead Guilty or Not Guilty? Write somewhere on the form (he is 21 years old and still living at home) a reason for doing 35mph in a 30mph limit.

Any advice would be hugely welcome.

Someone told me to say that it was ME that was driving his car & because HE received the speeding notice & I didn't see it just to try to save his licence, but obviously, that would open up a whole new can of worms & my job would take a very dim view of doing that hahahaha

Any help gratefully received.

I have 20 days to reply to this "Notice".

Thank you guys

Ian

[charitynjw]

Re: Son's Speeding/Failure to give information

Hi guys,

I have been in & out of this brilliant forum a while ago & you helped me defeat a stupid parking fine that was dismissed due to the inefficency of the ParkingEye people.

Now for a new one for advice - I have 20 days to try to help my son (although I think it's futile)!

He is basically a muppet, passed his driving test late last year & within 2 months, got a speeding ticket (already been to court - 35mph in 30 limit - £200 + 3 points), a "Fail to give information relating to identification of the driver" & another speeding offence "35mph in 30 limit" (07/12/2015).

Because he was scared as to what we would say about his immaturity & getting the fines/points within months of getting his licence, he ignored & hid the initial letters, so it ended up with the first speeding offence going to court & getting a £200 fine + 3 points on his licence.

NOW!

He has just received a "Single Justice Procedure Notice" with 2 Charges: 1) Fail to give information relating to the identification of the driver (section 172(3) and
2) Speeding - exceeding 30 miles per hour on restricted road - automatic camera device (section 81(1) & 89(1).
What was the date of the offence?
Is son the registered keeper?
Was a Notice of Intended Prosecution (NIP) sent to the registered keeper?
If yes, what is the date on the NIP?
When was it delivered? (& did you keep the envelope?)

I realise that he is going to lose his licence for some months & get a hefty fine & his insurance will go up a lot, but it would be REALLY helpful to me to let him know WHAT to write on the Notice that he has just received.

Plead Guilty or Not Guilty? Write somewhere on the form (he is 21 years old and still living at home) a reason for doing 35mph in a 30mph limit.

Any advice would be hugely welcome.

Someone told me to say that it was ME that was driving his car & because HE received the speeding notice & I didn't see it just to try to save his licence, but obviously, that would open up a whole new can of worms & my job would take a very dim view of doing that hahahaha
Google 'Chris Huhne speeding'.

Any help gratefully received.

I have 20 days to reply to this "Notice".

Thank you guys

Ian

Hi Ian.

Just out of interest, was it the same camera both times? (Not that it makes much difference to the case!)

[paulajayne]

Re: Son's Speeding/Failure to give information

He pleads NG to speeding and the S172 (failure to notify).
Attends court suited and booted and asks to speak to the clerk of the court offers to plead guilty to the speeding if they will drop the S172.
Very unusual for them to say no.

Most likely his points will total 6 and licence will be revoked - He will have to retake his driving test.



DO NOT name yourself unless to fancy time inside.

[charitynjw]

Re: Son's Speeding/Failure to give information

He pleads NG to speeding and the S172 (failure to notify).
Attends court suited and booted and asks to speak to the clerk of the court offers to plead guilty to the speeding if they will drop the S172.
Very unusual for them to say no.

Most likely his points will total 6 and licence will be revoked - He will have to retake his driving test.



DO NOT name yourself unless to fancy time inside.

Hi paulajayne

The NIP must be served on the registered keeper within 14 days of the incident. (Possibly a tiny light at the end of a dark tunnel - we won't know until the questions (post #2) are answered).

Of course, even if the NIP is defective, there's still the failure to supply the other info.

[CaptainChaos]

Re: Son's Speeding/Failure to give information

Thanks guys.

I'll try to do this bit by bit because I am obviously a perfect driver & have never done any of this before!

charitynjw:
Date of Offence: 7/12/2015.
Son IS the registered keeper.
NIP: Unknown - Only letter I have seen is the Reminder Letter date 13/02/2016 which states that a "NIP was recently sent" & "the matter is still outstanding", so I can't say the date of NIP/date delivered, sorry.
The "Fail to give information relating to the identification of the driver" .... says "On 12/01/2016 at SPEED ENFORCEMENT UNIT, BRISTOL having been required by or on behalf of the Chief Officer of Police for A&S Constabulary, failed to give information ....."
The "Speeding - exceed 30 miles per hour - automatic camera device" was 7/12/2015 at **35mph** a speed exceeding 30mph.

Cheers
Ian

ps. I have been told that he WON'T have to retake his driving test, but due to the totting up of points, will lose his licence for 6 months (or something like that).

[charitynjw]

Re: Son's Speeding/Failure to give information

Thanks guys.

I'll try to do this bit by bit because I am obviously a perfect driver & have never done any of this before!

charitynjw:
Date of Offence: 7/12/2015.
Son IS the registered keeper.
NIP: Unknown - Only letter I have seen is the Reminder Letter date 13/02/2016 which states that a "NIP was recently sent" & "the matter is still outstanding", so I can't say the date of NIP/date delivered, sorry.
It is important that you get this info - contact the Enforcement Unit & get a copy of the NIP. (Btw, it won't matter if you didn't receive a copy if they can 'prove' that one was sent by post)
The "Fail to give information relating to the identification of the driver" .... says "On 12/01/2016 at SPEED ENFORCEMENT UNIT, BRISTOL having been required by or on behalf of the Chief Officer of Police for A&S Constabulary, failed to give information ....."
The "Speeding - exceed 30 miles per hour - automatic camera device" was 7/12/2015 at **35mph** a speed exceeding 30mph.
The minimum speed which they can do your son for in a 30mph zone. See below.

Cheers
Ian



ps. I have been told that he WON'T have to retake his driving test, but due to the totting up of points, will lose his licence for 6 months (or something like that).

Something to chew on (& spit nails!)
The ACPO guidance (for most areas) is to allow a tolerance for speed cameras/speedometer glitches.
10% + 2mph is the minimum at which they prosecute in a 30 area
According to my math, you could be doing the legal 30mph & still get done.
However, to try & challenge the speed camera calibration is, in my opinion, a very expensive & usually futile exercise.

[paulajayne]

Re: Son's Speeding/Failure to give information

Collecting 6 points or more with 2 years of passing test involves loss of licence and driving test retake.

https://www.gov.uk/penalty-points-en...ts/new-drivers

[CaptainChaos]

Re: Son's Speeding/Failure to give information

To be honest, he is doomed to lose his licence, pay the fine & he will have to suck it up & pay the price for being stupid & immature.

It's just what to do with the Single Justice Notice - should I just write "guilty" on all of it, because to be honest, he's going to get enough points to lose the licence & it'll make little or no difference to write "Not Guilty" on it.

I'll just get him to write "I am so sorry I have just started a new job & need my car to get there or I will lose my job" type stuff - last time he was in court, there was a woman there who got a total of 14 points & STILL kept her licence!!!!

[des8]

Re: Son's Speeding/Failure to give information

In order to prevent the loss of his driving licence, he must show the implications and effect of a disqualification would go far beyond that which would normally be anticipated.
The Court will automatically assume that any suspension will result in hardship and will emphasise that that is the purpose of a disqualification. loss of employment alone is not normally sufficient to justify the Court exercising discretion as he would have undoubtedly been aware of the effect that a ban would have on employment before the offence was committed
However, if he can show that the implications would go far beyond that which would be reasonable, it is feasible that the Court would accept those circumstances as being "exceptional" and sufficient to justify a punishment other than a licence suspension. eg others would lose employment because of his loss of licence.

[paulajayne]

Re: Son's Speeding/Failure to give information

[QUOTE=CaptainChaos;648098]

I'll just get him to write "I am so sorry I have just started a new job & need my car to get there or I will lose my job" type stuff - QUOTE]

That will not cut it - It is the effect on others that is more important with mitigation - Taking Gran to hospital, Caring for Great aunt. etc. Impact on him will have little effect.

[mystery1]

Re: Son's Speeding/Failure to give information

There is no mitigation or hardship route here.

What he needs to do is send nothing at all. Turn up to the pleading hearing and speak to the usher and ask for the prosecutor. Then ask the prosecutor if they will drop the failure to furnish in return for a guilty on the speeding which they usually will do.. He will have 6 points and have his license revoked by DVLA in the future which means he can drive to and from court which he couldn't do if banned as a ban is instant. Revocation is a DVLA run process so nothing said to the court can have any impact.

Had he not have pratted around he'd have got a seed awareness course the 1st time and 3 points the 2nd time so wouldn't have had his license revoked. Kick his arse, not for the speeding but for making a run of the mill speeding matter far more difficult.

M1

[charitynjw]

Re: Son's Speeding/Failure to give information

Although I agree totally with mystery1, I find this kind of situation repugnant.

Ok, they will point out that it's a strict liability offence. But in reality, it's just a method of milking the cash cow (ie the motorist) for all it's worth.

& unless you can afford Mr Loophole, there's not much the average Joe can do about it.

3 (or in this case, 6) points on your license for going a tad over 30mph.......that's criminal, imho.

[des8]

Re: Son's Speeding/Failure to give information

My understanding is:
Drivers are disqualified by courts, but licence is revoked by Secretary of State (via DVLA)
A driver who has passed his test within the preceding two years of the date of the event receives an immediate disqualification from the courts (where he will be required to surrender his licence), and his licence is subsequently revoked (which means a retest)

He will be required to produce his licence to the court(: Road Traffic (offenders) Act 1988 sec 27 (1) ) and if he fails he is guilty of an offence and the licence will be suspended from the time its production was required (sec 27 (3) a & b

Road Traffic (new Drivers) act 1995 2 surrender of licence (1) & (2)

[Openlaw15]

Re: Son's Speeding/Failure to give information

To be honest, he is doomed to lose his licence, pay the fine & he will have to suck it up & pay the price for being stupid & immature.

It's just what to do with the Single Justice Notice - should I just write "guilty" on all of it, because to be honest, he's going to get enough points to lose the licence & it'll make little or no difference to write "Not Guilty" on it.

I'll just get him to write "I am so sorry I have just started a new job & need my car to get there or I will lose my job" type stuff - last time he was in court, there was a woman there who got a total of 14 points & STILL kept her licence!!!!

Does he need the licence for his livelihood ie his job? The Magistrate has some discretion when it's loss of a licence. You can either say he was just young and foolish and he hid the reminder notice because he is young and foolish. Being fearful does not mean guilty mind! if the reminders are not recorded delivery, you could say you never received them so did not know a court hearing was set (be a good liar..as it technically perjury). You can enter a statutory declaration to this effect (albeit perjuring lying on oath). I would not say you were driving the car as if you get found out you could go to prison for this type of perjury. I would just tell the truth.. your young and foolish son hid the reminder letters.

[mystery1]

Re: Son's Speeding/Failure to give information

My understanding is:
Drivers are disqualified by courts, but licence is revoked by Secretary of State (via DVLA)
A driver who has passed his test within the preceding two years of the date of the event receives an immediate disqualification from the courts (where he will be required to surrender his licence), and his licence is subsequently revoked (which means a retest)

He will be required to produce his licence to the court(: Road Traffic (offenders) Act 1988 sec 27 (1) ) and if he fails he is guilty of an offence and the licence will be suspended from the time its production was required (sec 27 (3) a & b

Road Traffic (new Drivers) act 1995 2 surrender of licence (1) & (2)

3 Revocation of licences.


(1)Where the Secretary of State receives—


(a)a notice sent to him under section 2(2)(a) of particulars required to be endorsed on the counterpart of a person’s licence, or


(b)a person’s licence and its counterpart sent to him in accordance with section 2(2)(b) or (4),


the Secretary of State must by notice served on that person revoke the licence.
(2)A revocation under subsection (1) shall have effect from a date specified in the notice of revocation which may not be earlier than the date of service of that notice.



A licence is not revoked unless and until the SOS serves the required notice.

M1