Reluctant - summons for Council Tax Arrears

[Reluctant]

Okay. Now I'm really scared.

[Kati]

Re: Your rights when you receive a summons for Council Tax Arrears

Okay. Now I'm really scared.

What's happening [MENTION=51853]Reluctant[/MENTION] ??

[Reluctant]

Re: Your rights when you receive a summons for Council Tax Arrears

I don't know.
Can't remember what I'll have said on the net already.
2 Lo's were issued.
I was rung before they arrived by the lad I paid at the Council to warn me that I might be getting a letter or some letters from them, which I thanked him for and he told me I could ignore them.
All CT had been paid before Summons date in cash, last part in person to him at their head office, he gave me a receipt and a new Bill with correct name and title this time but still for the incorrect amount, apart from the amount myself and family had been awarded CTR for.
One LO was for this tax year which express I owe 2 months instalment that I had paid cash @ bank 3 working days prior to the Summons date but had written "Under duress" on the payment slip hoping it would draw attention to the Councils previous errors.
That may have been why they still issue Summons as in the main I would be the Liable person to pay at this address.
Even so, they had all the money they were due in good time plus the £80.00 Court fee that I should get back if it were possible for me to contact the Magistrate and have them rescind the LO.
That and the other LO, which was for a Summons issued in the tax yr 2000 to my then partner now dead Husband was addressed to Exors of: Both had naff form attached which I can not fill in.
The LO letter states fines begin at £1,000.00 a piece for non compliance and go upwards to Bailiffs, additional fines/fees/penalties and imprisonment, which I shall presume is standard wording and will carry in a Court of Law.

Again I rang the Council and went through all that had come to pass. Telling the girl where and why they were wrong, my fears of threat and retribution, reasons why CTR claim had been late. I request apology for their threats, delays, errors, deformation of character, distress caused to myself and family and ask they contact Magistrate and have the LO rescinded as they should never have been written in the 1st place.
I also request for them to put in writing, to arrive to me by the Friday of that week that I owed them nothing, which would have been in time before further action would be taken against me as the time limit would be up on the Sunday because a person telling me over the phone that I could ignore it would not be enough for a Judge and I need it put in writing for my own peace of mind as much as anything else.
All she said was she would make a note of what I had said on the system. I got no letter and no revised bill, even though she told me on her system I did not owe them anything. I still needed to know that I also would not owe the Court anything either and I am not able to contact the Court, I have to go through the Council.

Otherwise I would have to go to their offices with 14 years worth of Income, expenditure, MP and Chief Executive letters and benefit details for them to photocopy so they could tell me how that was going to fit on a 2 page form with very little room or if it was even necessary considering the year 2000 LO was for a balance of £0.00.

The LO and form addressed to me for this yr should have been simpler. Except they will not accept my word that I had no income other than the ESA award and a cashed ISA they already had on file.
Even proof of ISA being closed with my word of where the cash had been used to pay Council and other bills etc. and Building Society date stamp and cashiers signature that the ISA account was closed and all money withdrawn was insufficient for ESA. I had to return to the Building Society and have the Manager write a letter to that effect on top, which I did day after they say my proof was not enough.
That last bit was for the CTR and ESA, "notify of changes."

Anyway. I did not receive such a letter and did not go to their offices on the Friday but I have been back since when I again rang to no good effect and had no other avenue but to make an appointment for them to see me and explain what I was obliged to do now.
This was because I had been advised to go to the Council and pay what remained and obtain a receipt.
Which is impossible when I owe nothing and their system now shows I owe £0.00

Appointment was a waste of time. It was barely a glorified photo-copying service with half hearted date stamp.
She kept asking if they really needed that information too.
I did not even start on the yr 2000 info before I was requested to leave as I was holding up others waiting for the service. She could answer none of my questions and did not print off anything to say I did not owe them as she said she would. Her only 'advice' was for me to do all of that when I put in an appeal.
To which, how can I even make an appeal for a Bill of nought?

The 21 days I would have had for the Magistrates to quash the Orders has now passed.
The deadline for completion of the attachment of earnings forms has now passed.
I am NOT going to pay the Court more money so they can look into their own failings that they will deny same as Council will.
I can not fight the system.

Reason for delay in back-dating claim for benefit makes matters worse and I have that ongoing to try and deal with.
I have to contact Police (which I did on Saturday but it was in person not in writing.) and same with NHS to obtain records they may have on file so I can try to provide more proof where there is at present insufficient 'good reason' so far as the CT Reduction team are concerned re: my late claim.

[Kati]

Re: Reluctant - summons for Council Tax Arrears

I think you need to write a complaint ... it seems to me from reading your post that you have been treated dreadfully by the council

can you get an appointment with someone in the CT department to go through everything with you?? Or maybe the CAB?? If you can sit down and go through everything you have, it might look a little less frightening xx

[ploddertom]

Re: Reluctant - summons for Council Tax Arrears

Contact your local Councillor(s) and ask they help you - best initial contact is by phone.

May I ask which Council it is as sounds like you have come up against a back office provider.

[seduraed]

Re: Reluctant - summons for Council Tax Arrears

When you next talk to the council record teh call . If they say "this call may be recorded etc. " simply say "likewise" and you ahve informed them . Otherwise just record the call , do you by any chance have hearing difficulties or comprehension difficulties as if so you can record without telling them as you the recordings to replay to understand the conversation .

[Reluctant]

Re: Reluctant - summons for Council Tax Arrears

Contact your local Councillor(s) and ask they help you - best initial contact is by phone.

May I ask which Council it is as sounds like you have come up against a back office provider.

Thanks for your replies.

I'm afraid to answer which Council. (Not cowering in the corner type.) I simply am unable to trust.
Does it make any difference which Council Ploddertom?

Writing on the net on open forum can be daft enough but I found I can not commit pen to paper anymore either.
It's a phase I'm going through. I do hope it will wear off.
Am finding it takes too long to extract thought from fact in order to be able to write a short version.

Some members of staff have been fairly decent and in the main, if they have someone crying down the phone they do want to help asap, even if it is to get you out the way so they can get on with the shear volume of callers they have to deal with on a daily basis.
Same goes for the Court staff.
When I woke one morning to realise the last payment I had made did not show on Councils system by the following working day like I had been told it would and I add that bit of info to wording on pending Summons.
"If the above amount is paid BEFORE THE DAY OF THE HEARING ALL PROCEEDINGS WILL BE STOPPED."
I knew I had to find out how long I actually had left.

Baring in mind the amount to be paid written on the Summons was for over a thousand pounds, which was an incorrect amount.
Due to being in credit before the yr began and having been awarded back-dated CTR following appointment I'd had on the 20th June with Council (12th with JSA,) 4 and 8 days before issue of Summons.
Meaning ESA and CTR were going to back-date to March and I had paid some CT in cash so as to be up to date when Council told me they would proceed to Court because I refuse to enter in to what I thought was an illegal Direct Debit agreement as I had at that time no income and could not guarantee there would be sufficient funds to cover such transaction and told them my bank had recently put in place additional charges if I were to go overdrawn. Plus I would never do DD with anyone anyway no matter who they were.
Instead I tell them I would pay original monthly amount and make arrangement to close ISA until benefit was sorted.
Lost my drift.
Court, they were nice too and helpful.
I twig.
Court appearance is at 2 o'clock.
I have to pay the Council not the Court.
If I paid on the day it would not show up on their system and the Magistrate would still write the Liability Order against me even if I did pay in cash before Date & Time as per Summons.
and I wanted to know how long it took for the Court to know the Council had received my money.

So I went down to the Magistrates Court to ask them direct.
They were good enough to let me in to try and speak to someone who'd know.
I note the Receptionist told me there is no facility to pay at the Court itself anyway, which is what I had intended to do if I reach worse case scenario and were to lose with a Magistrate.

She advice I put in writing to the Court my questions, although Magistrates have no contact details on the Summons.
Seeing as internal mail could take up to 2 weeks my questions would be answered too late, which is why i went in person, needing an e-mail or phone number so I could reach the Magistrate before Court so as to save on the possible costs of using actual Court time.

Also I needed to tell them the Summons was not a legal document. Apart from it being drawn up for an incorrect amount and I wanted to know if by law I had to pay that higher sum and wanted to know if they would return me the difference because the Council never return the money they held in their account for the yr my partner/then husband was dying of cancer. And if it stated in Law that I owed it and I did not dispute beforehand (so they could give me my £80 back) or on the day. How was I going to be able to get money that was rightfully mine back after the event?

Besides which. Name on Summons was not mine. it was to a Miss and I'd got married so was Ms. and name did not match either my Birth Certificate or Marriage Licence, so I knew I was obliged to have them correct that or it could be thrown out of Court.
I didn't want to get anyone in trouble but had offered my Birth and marriage documents when asked at the Council and had given correct spelling of name over the phone on several occasions. They already had me on the electoral role.
I was told it wasn't important as I was who I said I was and did live at the address and that was all the Court needed.

If only I was a different kind of person, I would have proven them wrong but never mind.

What was important to me, was to not have a Liability Order written.
As I had read, that for anyone living in a house, whether family member or not; Where a liability Order was made, if any member of the household were on benefits and for up to the next 5 years, they could have their benefits stopped and have sanctions made against them for as long as the LO remained in place.
That was a threat I was not prepared to live under and I did not see why my children should have to suffer that either as it was not their fault that I had become unable to deal with the outside world in a practical and meaningful way.
Lady at Reception agree with me that my ignorance was no good defence (because we can all go read up on the Laws) and neither was my mental incapacity.
Which again, if you think about it is hardly fair. The Law was set up to be fair and the Courts were put in place to uphold the Law and protect those less able to defend themselves.

As for CAB. Some who work there, as with some at the Council. They know our family anyway and I'd rather not talk to them as well.

Similar to local Councillor. I took that route back in 2000. You got nice cream envelopes with a postage stamp of the Crown and headed paper but when you get the wrong letter in our envelope for someone who's been having their own problems who lives a mile away - you work out it's not all your fault that the system can't function as well as it should.
We are human fallible.

I did spend a few days reading every link I could get come up on what I might be able to do myself. Came up with these and tried to send a form but like it is with many of the police sites, I get broken links, 404 and other error messages come up and then I realise I have to go try do something more productive or constructive in the real world as my time here is running out.
http://judicialconduct.judiciary.gov...-complaint.htm

[Reluctant]

Re: Reluctant - summons for Council Tax Arrears

Seduraed

I tried recording a part of the Income Support 45 minute questionnaire because the girl was so incredibly difficult to understand I wasn't totally sure what it was I was answering to for some of it.
This is not politically correct and I do apologise to all before I offend.
I love listening to peoples accents and we get an awful amount of overseas junk calls per day of people wanting to speak to my dead husband (which is rather grating over the yr.) I blurted out to some Scottish woman at the JSA/ESA whoever national call centre, that it made a change to not understand her broad accent - but this IS girl was either profoundly deaf or had cerebral palsy and it struck me as rather cruel to make her struggle with the endless lists of questions she had to ask if people were less aware of how hard that must be. Someone I was typing to at the same time said I should have asked to speak to someone else but that would have been a bit heartless. So glad I was on my own with no other distraction. for that one.

I didn't manage to record. I was using the camera and hadn't pressed the record button in enough.. or too much. I'm not great with technology
I tend to type it out as fast as poss when they say something. If I did record myself (the calls) I would probably be able to see where it is I'm not successful at transcending the communication barrier.

And... I am beginning to wonder if I could be just a hint or more Aspergers. It would explain a few things, if not to me then to others who could deal better with the alternative option.
They don't test adults and it makes no difference if I was.

[Reluctant]

Re: Reluctant - summons for Council Tax Arrears

I think you need to write a complaint ... it seems to me from reading your post that you have been treated dreadfully by the council

can you get an appointment with someone in the CT department to go through everything with you?? Or maybe the CAB?? If you can sit down and go through everything you have, it might look a little less frightening xx

No. I had made a further appointment for Council to go through it with me but it turned out to be no more than their photocopying service and she could not answer any questions except to tell me the system showed I had nothing to pay.

[Kati]

Re: Reluctant - summons for Council Tax Arrears

Complain formally. Write (or phone) requesting a meeting specifically for going through all the documents/info you have. Make sure you tell them it will take longer than usual, and also that it needs to be with someone higher up in the council than the 'photocopying service' personnel :tinysmile_twink_t2:

[Reluctant]

Re: Reluctant - summons for Council Tax Arrears

I tried to contact the Magistrates Court today to find out if any further action is being taken against me.
Although I have been told Council Tax is a civil offence, that option on the phone is not for Council Tax but for parking fines etc.
Contact Court Admin line busy.
Tried Enforcement. They have no detail of either LO's or anything on/about me and suggest I contact the Council too.

What is the next process one has to go through after a Liability Order has been written?
Is there actually going to be a further Court case or Court action taken so I can be given a number which can then be used so that someone in the system can actually look and make any comment as to whether the LO's are still valid, in place or enforced meaning Bailiffs will be called and my house taken to pay potentially massing fines for a set of errors which are no longer mine.

Perhaps that is why the Ombudsman online complaints form can not be accepted as there is no case number I can enter in to the required field.
If there is going to be a case then the matter is classed as ongoing and the Ombudsman can not do anything, so I still will not be able to inform them of errors in the system.

Magistrates Court so far, refer me back to the Council and they won't let me speak to the Magistrate.
It is only the Magistrate who can use his authority to waver the LO's.
I can only have the Magistrate do that if I pay £155.00 and apply to the Court for them to look again at the now corrected mistakes.
Or.
Go to the next Court up which will cost even more money.

All this, when we are told anyone can claim CTR and other benefits.

I can not make them go away and leave me alone by saying I will give them back the benefit granted as was stated years ago to me by the Family Tax Credit department when I beg they not send any more letters and request they stop giving us WFTC as my then partners earnings had increased and he felt it best to stop getting WFTC then rather than have to pay them back later once his tax return forms were agreed the following year:- "If by law it turned out we have entitlement, then they would be breaking that law if they did not pay us."
Benefit forms were causing major distress and argument at home and I pleaded with the woman.
it transpired the only way she could do that for me, was to wipe us from their system completely by making us return all of the WFTC that we had been entitled to for the 6 months previous to my phone call to them where I notify of his increase in earnings.
We were then obliged to pay £4,000 back and result was we were in a worse financial situation than before when we were living on amount below the Income Support allowances for a family with 3 children that we had been when getting WFTC in 2000.
It was at that point he vow never to claim Council Tax reduction again.
I should have followed on with that after death but was coerced to claim what I was entitled to rather than think I could no longer afford to live.

[Kati]

Re: Reluctant - summons for Council Tax Arrears

If the debt is in dispute (as in your case) the Enforcement Agents should not be trying to collect on it. You are not refusing to pay what you actually owe, just trying to ensure that you are being charged the correct amount. Now the LO has been granted, I think you need to get the council to recall it from the bailiffs, and even to waive it (not 100% sure they will do this, but it is worth fighting for)

CTR is a way of lessening your charges for CT and i(n my opinion) should be claimed by everyone who is entitled to it!! If you have not been underpaid, then I believe that the council should be willing to look into it as a matter of urgency.

Feel free to private message me if you want to tell me anything that you feel unsure about saying on an open forum - I'm quite friendly, and really want to help you in this

Kati x

[Reluctant]

Re: Reluctant - summons for Council Tax Arrears

Thank you Kati
Your in box might not be big enough.

oh.. and on 8th August at the appointment I had regarding all this. I did give them a 5 page letter but I have no idea which department or bin it will have been put in.
I think I got a reply to it of sorts.
Written on the 11th from a Senior Customer Contact Officer Final Assessment who writes:-
"I refer to your claim for council tax reduction and note that you have requested that your claim entitlement is backdated to 27 December 2013

Firstly I would like to apologise for my previous letter stating that you had claimed housing benefit, this was a mistake on my part and I can confirm that your claim is for council tax reduction."

I may well have ticked the box for housing benefit as I was completing a form where I was told to claim for everything and it was down to them to refuse and there should have been a chance that I could be paid rent by my 2 now adult children if they were entitled to HB which would have given me some money so we could continue to afford to keep the roof over our heads and been able to pay the Council Tax with the rent money. Plus I had a go at filling in the on line forms for council tax and housing benefit and I have no idea what happens to those, whether they ever go anywhere or who looks at them. And my Son also tried to see if he had entitlement to benefit as we'd been advised and had made some contact via the benefit help line and been refused Income Support despite working less than 16hrs and having earnings below the £125.40 which the Council say he has.

I did get 2 letters with a claim reference, PIN, reason for calculation: stating 'Claim made in error'
I have no idea who's error when or why but they were dated 1/7/2014.

A side note. Council on line forms mention there is hell to pay if you abuse their system or put in incorrect amounts... or words to that affect. They scare me too.
They want me to allow a file on my computer or use cookies and I do not trust anyone doing anything to the computers in this house, not even myself.
Plus Gov. websites state, I have to keep my data secure, not divulge personal information or give out NI etc on the net and the 1st thing they do is ask for my NI number, name and so on.
Microsoft no longer do security updates. PC's can be hacked, info deleted in error and Government files and data can be lost or stolen as has been the case in the past.
To which I have one letter apologising for such loss in 2007 from the child benefit department where my bank and my children's NI details were found to be missing and the Police were looking in to why.
Yet they expect me to comply and agree to keep them secure before I may proceed to even try fill out a claim form.

"In accordance with the housing benefit and council tax benefit regulations 2006 and the council tax reduction scheme (---- Council) 2013, benefit is generally assessed with effect from the Monday following the date that a form is received in the benefit office."

Note: They date stamp my form on Friday 20/6/2014 so was prior to the Monday and they issue Summons on Tuesday 24th. so although it was close, they were still incorrect to fine me £80.00 and issue summons for the incorrect amount. They should have waited until they were sure if I was in fact Liable or taken my word that I was not due to pay them the full amount.
Being too quick to assume and judge is something a human does not the system.

"The rules regarding the backdating of benefit are very precise. There must be continuous good cause, throughout the period that benefit is required, for an earlier claim not having been made at the correct time."

Have you ever read the rules and regs to find the precise bits which are applicable?
I tried. So specific that I could not find the one I was looking for.
There are masses of pages filled with amendments to the various applicable laws.
No where did I find the recent addition where domestic violence can also include abuse.
Where the psychological harm one can be subjected to over a lengthy period which will often go undetected and can result in affects now associated to PTSD if a person has been unable or not facilitated in order to be able to have stop or relieve them of being subjected to such stresses or able to leave or remove the stressor or remove the threats and intimidation that such abuse of power has over them that it can render a person physically incapable of what their peers would consider normal capabilities to function.
IE:- in my case. To be able to talk or write to others, to be able to seek help and follow advice outside of the boundaries of my original confinement.

"I have carefully considered your case and must advise you that based upon the information you have provided that your claim cannot be backdated before 3 March 2014. This is because you have not provided continuous good cause for the delay in making your claim."

Abuse by definition is not a 'Good cause' it's a bad one.
I had thought my reason originally was that I was grieving and that was why I had not managed to be able to be 'the responsible adult' in dealing with my late husbands financial and my own personal affairs and as grief is a natural process and I'd grown an aversion to the avenues the NHS take when 'caring for the sick' where I was powerless to stop some of the dreadful things they do. I had not been nor wished to return to the surgery again for as long as was humanly possible. I did not know you had to have a sickness certificate to be able to grieve. I thought it was a natural process like pregnancy. And.. no, I did not get sick notes for carrying 2 of my children either.

Apart from that. Council had awarded CTB up until March 2014 or indefinitely following the Macmillan benefits advisors claim she put in on my partners behalf.
On top of them already paying themselves with the money of ours they'd held on account since April 2012 which they'd not returned as they could gain interest if they kept it.
Even though it could have been used to pay this years council tax if I hadn't got a job by then.. which I hadn't.

"I acknowledge that it is a very difficult time for you and that you have no income. Thank you for visiting ----- --- 8 August 2014, however you have still not provided evidence of how you were supporting yourself between 27/12/13 and 3/3/2014."

Why should i be subjected to further humiliation and describe to them how I managed to live?
This paragraph was written because I show them my bank statements for that period where they express an income of £0.00 and fail to see I was drawing money out of my account and I gave them fuel bills showing they were paid during that period.
But; as I have found out and council confirm. If I had cash in bank and Capitol of ISA and it's interest and those 2 sums amount to more than 6k, I would not be entitled to CTB myself. Although my 2 children should still be eligible for their portion of CTR
Ah... prior to, in the yr 2013 to14 the law was different.
They had not introduced Council tax reduction until this yr.
Even more confusing.

"If you disagree with this decision you have the right to appeal. Any such appeal must be made in writing within one month of the date of this letter stating clearly the grounds upon which it is based. "

I'm now obliged to prove that domestic abuse went on for the 10 yrs prior to claim which render me helpless, living in fear of authority or seeking outside help or influence. Unable to overcome fear of consequence to any of my actions or inaction where i found I'm unable to commit pen to paper or convey myself well to others.
Should be doable.
What I do not want is to be labeled and recoded as mentally defective in any legal form - to which I do not think stand a chance.
Neither do I particularly wish to obtain and document evidence of abuse or provide such proof to the Council when it is none of their business how I managed or failed to manage to live during any given time period.
Especially when they already have paid themselves once or twice during the Dec/March period and it doesn't look to me as if I can be given that as rebate now either on grounds of me having had too much income as they classify me as being a single person by that time.
No longer with a partner so not considered me as having a family and my children, they do not class as children, even though my daughter still came under that heading on the CTR form.
They are deemed single people in their own right yet they can not claim housing benefit for rent rebate whereas strangers taken in off the street would have been.
Government has recently announced they intend making changes to 'put the family 1st' It won't stretch to cover me though.

Yet... if I don't appeal and give them reason and if I do what I was told to do and ignore the LO letters. Court can legally decide I am liable and follow through with any or all of theirs and the Councils threats.
I don't do well with being threatened any more. Especially when I know they have the power to carry them out.

That aside. The letter shows they are trying to be helpful and offering what they can.
It's just me who is unable to accept that as being reassuring or that I am safe from prosecution or that my family will be safe from further penalty and sanctions made against us in the future.

[Reluctant]

Re: Reluctant - summons for Council Tax Arrears

PS. My children have already been awarded the maximum they can be given for the whole of this current tax year. I'll have to look in to how further back dating could affect us bearing in mind rules were not the same last yr.

[MissFM]

Re: Reluctant - summons for Council Tax Arrears

Hi Reluctant

I'm also very sorry indeed to read what you are experiencing. I wonder if you could try to boil it down to a few simple events on a timeline so that we can all understand it better?

One thing I would like to pick up on is that you mention that grief is not an illness but a process and also that you do not wish to be considered "mentally defective".

I would agree on those points - but the process of grief can make you quite ill in the medical sense and please don't shy away from medical assistance - it can be a lifeline and may also help with the practical and financial difficulties you describe above.

It is not the same as being "mentally defective" - a term I personally find offensive and wonder who has said this to you. If you do have (for example) learning disabilities or any form of impairment or illness (whether temporary or permanent) that affects your ability to cope then it should (by law) help with your situation to bring that to the attention of the authorities.

HTH along with Kati's wisdom above. xx