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Landlord only paying Council tax for whole house not Flats

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  • Landlord only paying Council tax for whole house not Flats

    Hi, just discovered that my Landlord is not paying Council Tax for each flat in the house conversion. I have lived here over 4 years and it is in my contract that all bills are included (including CT) expect Electric. I have this in the contract for each of the 4 years. Also the original advert for the Flat & initial emails stating this. So I have proof. It came to light as my boyfriend was looking at moving in and he would require a parking permit which I asked LL about but he stated all parking passes are gone. Couldn’t understand as I’m the only one living here and assumed each flat would have their own. Anyway he threatens me if I alert the council & that I would be liable to pay and left with a massive bill. I spoke to another tenabt who stated they were also threatened when someone came to do the electoral roll in person.

    There are 5 flats in this conversion. So we did some digging and he is advertising 2 other properties all inclusive in house conversion so I don’t believe it’s an isolated case. We checked online planning permission. Seems there was none. Put in application in 2010 and it was withdrawn. Unless it’s not required to turn houses into self contained Studios.

    So, do I come clean to Council? What can I do to stop harassment from LL if discovered? Am I liable? If so how can I get money of LL? It’s very stressful as I had no idea. The Landlord is a well known guy in the area giving talks about housing & has a letting agency, belongs to all the Property stuff. Sure he wouldn’t like the publicity so hoping he would just pay. Thought he was legit LL. I am planning on moving in next couple month but I’m guessing if doscovered I’ll still be liable for back CT.

    Thanks in advance for any help.
    Tags: None

  • #2
    Can you post up redacted agreement?

    Comment


    • #3
      It’s the NLA paperwork I guess just printed off. It states what bills are included. Has tick boxes. Council tax is ticked. In original contract it states that Council Tax is included clearly written. Also still have the advert I replied to with that information & his emails stating clearly CT included just not electric. I mean he can’t have written it by accident and ticked the box 4 times

      If required I’m sure I could show agreement later when Home. Thanks for reply

      Comment


      • #4
        If you could post up original agreement (redacted) I’m sure others will be able to advise on what they see.

        Comment


        • #5
          What happens if you were to be able to claim Housing Benefit or Council Tax Reduction/Single Person Discount? Sounds to me as if he is profiteering from what he is charging and AFAIK then the only way he can do this is if it was a HMO - usually Student lets.

          Comment


          • #6
            Assuming England or Wales

            The problem you have is it is not the landlord who determines whether or not a property is a dwelling for council tax purposes (there are two main ways a property can be regarded as a dwelling). It is down to the valuation office agency to make the decison. Where the valuation office make a determination that a HMO should have been multiple dwellings they can and will backdate, often for substantial periods of time (in theory there is no limit on most circumstances as to how far back the banding can be set)

            Once a date has been set for the banding of an independent dwelling then the council will come knocking and, as the resident, you will be liable for the council tax charge except in the very rare cases that the new dwelling also falls to be a council tax HMO (in the thousands of council tax cases I've seen that happen very rarely).

            Any agreement you have made with the landlord is between you and him, it has bearing on liability decison which would be under s6 of the local government finance act 1992.The landlord threatening is you is a bit of a moot point as (except in rare cases) you would fall liable for the council tax charge on the falt anyway.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by ploddertom View Post
              What happens if you were to be able to claim Housing Benefit or Council Tax Reduction/Single Person Discount? Sounds to me as if he is profiteering from what he is charging and AFAIK then the only way he can do this is if it was a HMO - usually Student lets.
              A wise council should spot that and investigate further - I used to get a couple of referrals each week from out benefit team where they weren't sure over liability and needed it checked in similar sorts of cases.

              Technically it's not just a council tax HMO for which the landlord is liable but the other cases are rare and some of them I've never seen actually come up in day to day council tax work.

              Comment


              • #8
                Thanks for all your replies. It seems LL is correct then even though in our contract it stipulates CT is included that I will be liable for it. So I’m assuming I can take him to court for the money as he has not held up his end of the contract.

                LL seems to not want Council to know he has converted the house into 5 seperate self contained flats. I looked on Council site and has the house down as Band B. I think he has no planning permission as saw it had been withdrawn though maybe LL didn’t require it? Wouldn’t the Council be aware of Council tax change if they knew of the conversion? What is the point of a contract if it is not totally legally binding?

                Not sure whether to come clean with Council or hope they not discover though I have paperwork to prove now. I don’t have the £4000 odd the CT bill would be.


                Yes, this is in England.

                Comment


                • #9
                  We are all working none of us receive any benefits. LL only takes working people.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Meepmeep View Post
                    Thanks for all your replies. It seems LL is correct then even though in our contract it stipulates CT is included that I will be liable for it. So I’m assuming I can take him to court for the money as he has not held up his end of the contract.
                    It would be up to the court to determine if the contact still applied after the change in circumstances and whether or not the clause was applicable.

                    What exactly does the clause state ? In most cases the clauses state something along the lines that the tenant will indemnify the landlord for any council tax charge and pay an amount to the landlord in respect of it. The clauses don't usually cover cases where the tenant actually would fall personally liable for the charge.

                    LL seems to not want Council to know he has converted the house into 5 seperate self contained flats. I looked on Council site and has the house down as Band B. I think he has no planning permission as saw it had been withdrawn though maybe LL didn’t require it? Wouldn’t the Council be aware of Council tax change if they knew of the conversion? What is the point of a contract if it is not totally legally binding?
                    It's very common - in over a decade of working in council tax I've seen it happen numerous times. In most cases the council is likely not aware of the conversion work but even if they are it's not always passed on to the valuation office to take a look. I'd be surprised if conversion to multiple flats didn't require full permission.

                    Not sure whether to come clean with Council or hope they not discover though I have paperwork to prove now. I don’t have the £4000 odd the CT bill would be.
                    If the property was rebanded at some future point and backdated (which it usually is) then you would fall liable anyway if the banding covered the period of your residence (They'd likely bill the landlord who would then provide evidence to show you were resisent and liable).

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by lgfa92 View Post


                      It's very common - in over a decade of working in council tax I've seen it happen numerous times. In most cases the council is likely not aware of the conversion work but even if they are it's not always passed on to the valuation office to take a look. I'd be surprised if conversion to multiple flats didn't require full permission.


                      Then of course there are the fire implications.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        The house was converted to Studio flats prior to me moving in so the contract has not changed in over 4 years I’ve lived here. I’ve also lived alone here. The only thing that’s changed is the amount of the rent which is increased yearly. It clearly states in contract the 4 times I’ve signed it that CT is included.

                        So I guess if the LL doesn’t pay the Council for all of the back dates CT we can take him to court for the money maybe small claims court. I would get in touch with my MP, local housing groups & even local press. As he’s well known LL & Estate Agent I’m sure he wouldn’t like the attention. Plus I know of 2 other properties he’s advertising currently as Studio self contained flats including all bills so the Council will want to look at those also.

                        Thanks for all your input & replies. Guessing it’s best to deal now. I have all paperwork now as proof. I can work together with my fellow flat dwellers in my building.

                        Im guessing the process is quite slow & if made to repay CT I can do in instalments until I can take LL to court & get money from him if he refused to pay. It’s not criminal or affect Credit rating right? Will be so cautious next time I rent. I’ll just stay out of my LL way until I can move he has a temper.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by ploddertom View Post


                          Then of course there are the fire implications.
                          Exactly - the health and safety implications go well beyond the council tax and rent issues.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Meepmeep View Post
                            The house was converted to Studio flats prior to me moving in so the contract has not changed in over 4 years I’ve lived here. I’ve also lived alone here. The only thing that’s changed is the amount of the rent which is increased yearly. It clearly states in contract the 4 times I’ve signed it that CT is included.
                            It would likely fall within the small claims court by value but it may fall in to the fast track, you would need to see at the time.

                            The problem regarding the council tax clause is that it refers to the current council tax position for which the landlord is liable anyway. If / When this position is changed then the issue regarding the clause in the agreement becomes a lot less certain and it would need the court to decide if the same clause applied to the new dwelling for which the circumstances are substantially different for council tax purposes.

                            Im guessing the process is quite slow & if made to repay CT I can do in instalments until I can take LL to court & get money from him if he refused to pay. It’s not criminal or affect Credit rating right? Will be so cautious next time I rent. I’ll just stay out of my LL way until I can move he has a temper.
                            A process of determining and setting a band takes 3-4 months usually but may take longer, it depends on the staffing of the local valuation office. If / When a new banding is set then the council do not have to offer more than 1 instalment for anything prior to 01 April of the year - whether or not they will give instalments on the arrears depends on the local council.

                            Plus I know of 2 other properties he’s advertising currently as Studio self contained flats including all bills so the Council will want to look at those also.
                            It's the valuation office and not the council who deal with the issues of banding. The valuation office will ultimately decide if the property is an individual dwelling or not for council tax purposes. Once the valuation office have made a determination then the council can start billing if the property is banded

                            So I guess if the LL doesn'’t pay the Council for all of the back dates CT we can take him to court for the money maybe small claims court. I would get in touch with my MP, local housing groups & even local press. As he’s well known LL & Estate Agent I’m sure he wouldn’t like the attention.
                            Thanks for all your input & replies. Guessing it’s best to deal now. I have all paperwork now as proof. I can work together with my fellow flat dwellers in my building.
                            It does no harm to push the landlord to pay up but the only people who could force it are the court. What's more important is to ensure that any challenge etc is done correctly and you keep on top of the issue. There are solicitors etc who are council tax specialists if you search around for them and would probably be able to assist along the way.

                            Comment

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