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Please help - we are losing our home :-(

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  • Please help - we are losing our home :-(

    We are about to lose our home and I am about to go mad. I have 2 small children, am on my own and I really need some help and some guidance so I can challenge my bank, which is HSBC.

    I had a loan in 2004 from them to buy a house when I left my marriage. They wouldnt give me a mortgage as I had one on my marital home. I had my own business at the time and they did it because of the income in that, but it was always secured in my name not the company's. I dont know what kind of loan it is the 'name' changes with each review, the agreement that came in February is called a 'base rate fixed term loan'. The Bank Manager at the start understood that it was in place of a mortgage and the rate was set at 2% above base. It was written into the agreement that they would replace this loan with a residential mortgage when the marital home was sold which it was in September 2009, but with very little equity left given the housing drop.

    But the bank didnt do this. Instead in October 2009 a new bank manager comes in. He puts the interest rate up overnight without any discussion to 6% above base doubling the monthly payment. Then in September 2010 he demands I pay him 5,000 or he will increase it by 100% again. I ask for details about why he has done this when interest rates are so low, again no answers. He then sends me a reviewed agreement which is very odd and says something along the lines of 'whilst we assume this loan is for buying a house we recognise it can be used for other things.' I am still paying 750 a month which was the pre Sept 2010 figure as I cannot afford the 1400 post Sept 2010 figure.

    They have now called in the loan and it has gone to the recovery dept. They are not very nice people. I asked for a subject access request in December 2010. I got all the electronic files but no paper files despite it being in a structured system and have now been told I cant have it as it is for 'internal use only'. I have sent a complaint to the ICO.

    I want to be able to prove that they should have converted this to a mortgage in Sept 2009 as that is what they promised they would do. Some contracts it is written into, in others it isnt but is was always the underlying premise.

    They have also set me up with a service account so I pay my money into there rather than the loan. It is a business account yet I am not self employed and the company folded in 2005. When the new manager put up the rate he sent it to the marital home (I dont know why, the previous manager sent it all here and had meetings with me here too so it was clear where I was living) and all the account statements. My ex took great delight in presenting it to the court as it was about 5k overdrawn as I didnt know about the interest rate change and hadnt been paying in enough. I cleared it but it now keeps happening so I am getting charged an unagreed overdraft interest on top of the mortgage making the mortgage interest about 28% above base. I'd like to be able to get those charges back.

    I dont understand why they would offer me a loan for 12 years, which he did last September, and not a mortgage as they promised. When I asked he said 'I am not a mortgage broker'. I asked to be put in touch with their mortgage team and nothing happened.

    I have put the house on the market. It is breaking my heart as it was my Mum's house and I bought it back from siblings, so Ive pretty much lived in it on and off all my life. Its been a safe bolt hole for me and the children but I dont know what else to do. I am really worried that they can make me bankrupt instead of go for possession ... I am all over the place.

    Im sorry this is so long but I want to try, I just dont know how. I cannot afford a solicitor, I can barely afford to feed my children right now and we have sold everything to try and keep making some of the repayments each month.

    Id like to know what legislation governs the loan. Is it exempt from the CCA? All was pre feb 11 when they changed things. Could it be seen as a mortgage? and governed by the Mortgage Act?
    Tags: None

  • #2
    Re: Please help - we are losing our home :-(

    When I was in a similarish position I went to a mortgage rescue scheme with a reputable Socail Housing Association. They bought the house off me for 85% of its true value, but we now have a very low rent (a lot lower than the mortgage was), no repair or upkeep bills, and it still feels like 'our house' even though we don't own it. I realise this doesn't answer your question, but it may be worth looking into. Our sale from start to finish took about 3-4 weeks.


    • #3
      Re: Please help - we are losing our home :-(

      Do you not have any of the original paperwork yourself? i.e the copy of the agreement where it was written in that the loan would be changed to a mortgage?

      Also, they can't just come along and have your house, they would need to go to court etc regarding the loan. If they do issue proceedings, I'm pretty certain that under CPR rules they will have to produce any relevant paperwork when asked for, or be directed by the judge to do so. I'll ask someone to come and have a look who knows more about this than me.
      Is no longer here


      • #4
        Re: Please help - we are losing our home :-(

        Hi Wendy,
        Yes I did a Subject Access Request for the paperwork and yes it is written into the agreements, some but not all of them. It was the base premise. They didnt give me everything with the SAR and Ive now had to go to the Information Commission Office to ask them to try and get me the rest. What I want is the notes from all the meetings that I had with the original manager to show the basis for the loan in the first place.
        Ive spoken to the FSA about unfair terms this afternoon and the Financial Ombudsman about a complaint as I keep complaining and they send me nothing. Am going to make to go through the paper work tonight and try and work out time lines, charges that kind of thing. I know when I read it all through the first time there was some memo in there saying 'we must avoid another such and such case'. So will get that out too.
        I was planning on asking for any court hearings to be adjourned and ask the judge to get them to give me the paperwork. Ive not though done anything like this before and I am scared witless.

        Hi Casper,
        Its interesting isnt it? I think I'll give it some thought. I dont know if I could live here if its owned by someone else... do you get any security that way?

        Thank you both for coming back to me, oddly, its good to know I am not the only one!

        Mum ..


        • #5
          Re: Please help - we are losing our home :-(

          You are bound to be scared, everything is scary when you've never had dealings with this kind of thing. But you seem to be doing okay so far. So if it is written into some of the agreements, then you have a sound basis for challenging the actions of the subsequent manager and therefore everything following that.

          Go through all the paperwork you've got, work on the principle of 3 piles - one for irrelevant, no use at all; one for might be useful; one for definitely useful/relevant. Then use it to build up a strong case for yourself. If you can put forward a good enough complaint to them, then this may be resolved without ever going to court.

          It seems daunting but you are obviously level headed and have common sense and are not completely clueless, as you have shown by what you've accomplished so far.

          If the notes of the meetings exist (which it seems they do as they have told you you can't have them because they are for internal use only,) then you have a right to them. They probably don't want you to see them as it would shoot their case down in flames and prove that the second manager was wrong, and ultimately the onus for this is on HSBC, who don't want to back down and admit that they are wrong.

          Keep going, and take each step one at a time. You will at some point, if you haven't already done so, need to put in writing to the recovery department that this "debt" is the subject of a complaint and is disputed, and that you expect all recovery action to be halted whilst your concerns/complaint is fully investigated.
          Last edited by WendyB; 23rd September 2011, 20:01:PM.
          Is no longer here


          • #6
            Re: Please help - we are losing our home :-(

            Hiya Mum


            you will NEVER be alone in this as long as you are on this site, as there are many many good people here that have been in similar situations, that do a great job in helping with the legalities and also in giving lots and lots of support and hugs, as we ALL need that when we are fighting these legalised theives

            so here's your first hug as I think you could be doing with one

            (((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((HUGS))) )))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))) )))))))))

            As well as the frist class advice you have had already

            I personally think that if you can find the agreement that this is written into

            It was written into the agreement that they would replace this loan with a residential mortgage when the marital home was sold which it was in September 2009,
            then I think this will be one of your biggest tools to fight them as they have BROKE their OWN agreement by NOT doing what they wrote in the contract

            Have you got a copy of that agreement still? ?


            Nearly forgot

            DON't give them the satisfaction of grinding you down, turn the tables and GRIND THEM DOWN

            We all know that you CAN and WILL do this , as we will help you, and make sure you use a HUGE grinder to do it lol
            Best wishes


            Advice & opinions of gorang are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability.
            I am not a solicitor so please seek professional legal advice if you have any doubts as to what I suggest.


            • #7
              Re: Please help - we are losing our home :-(

              Great advice folks.

              Mumisskint you will get through this, stay strong now, and everything crossed for you x


              • #8
                Re: Please help - we are losing our home :-(

                Are you up to date with your monthly payments?

                How can they jack up the interest overnight, surely if it is a loan it would have been written in the loan agreement what the interest is?

                I fully agree they have not given you all the information you requested from your SAR and therefore the Data controller is in big trouble imho.


                • #9
                  Re: Please help - we are losing our home :-(


                  I would try not to worry too much at this stage, even a very determined Bank in a straight forward case would take many months to get anywhere near taking possession of a properly defended application.

                  The first question would be is this loan actually secured on the property?

                  The rights and obligations of parties attached to loans is within the contract and a court will seek to ensure that those terms (providing they are lawful) are upheld.

                  You really need the contract(s) going through to make sure the Bank have acted in full accordance with the terms. If terms have changed it needs to be checked that the contract allows such changes to be made and that they are lawful.

                  Can you post up the original agreement (with your personal details removed)? and then any subsequent agreements.

                  Goran has highlighted one area with potential, if they have broken the contract by not transferring it to a mortgage, they are depriving you of legal rights and protection enjoyed by mortgage contracts, giving you a perfectly good defence should they attempt to gain possession.

                  There is a rule of Law called 'the clean hands doctrine' which states that a person bringing a legal action must come to the table with clean hands . . . . their breech of contract (and any other unfair or misleading conduct) means 'dirty hands' so do go through all the paperwork you have with a fine tooth comb.



                  • #10
                    Re: Please help - we are losing our home :-(

                    Hello everyone, sorry it has taken a little while to come back. I got the box of papers down and didnt have the courage to open it on Friday, Saturday it made me cry, but fortified by all of your lovely comments (and hugs - thankyou!) and not wanting to be the idiot who lets her boys down, I have gone through it tonight.

                    A little more background might be useful.

                    Back in 2002 I had my first child. I was married, successful company etc, own home. 6 weeks after baby was born my then husband became really violent. We tried to work it out for 2 years but he seemed unable to calm down. So I went to the bank and asked for a loan to buy my Mums house as she died that year and I was left with a 3rd. I told all of the sorry story to the bank manager who on the strength of my business agreed the loan. I was in no state really to be making any financial decisions but I just wanted to be safe with my children. The deal as I understood it was that I would take the loan, move into the house, start divorce proceedings, sell the marital home, use the equity to pay off some of the loan and the rest would go onto a residential mortgage. My X decides that's too civilised and stays in the house until 2008 refusing and obstructing sales. He remains threatenning and manipulative and I admit it took me a long time to find the confidence to stand up to him. I did finally in 2008 and went to court and got an order for sale. We lost 50k on the property with the housing drop so the equity was small. My company folded in 2006 (I was a wreck!) but the loan is in my name not the company's so it stayed on.

                    Here is the initial agreement from 2004. The first one. From the paperwork it has been reviewed 6 times between 2005 and now. The fees for these reviews amount in total to 6k. I have now been offered a very dodgy looking loan over a 12 year period that is just 100% increase again so from 750 a month to 1300 per month but no justification as to why 12 years and not 25 etc.

                    (Removed as I have uploaded them now below :-) )
                    (this is the link to the docs ... am not sure how to upload to here ...)

                    Within the paper work there are three points:
                    a) I am (unbeknown to me) a 'sole trader' whose business is 'buy to letting'. I am 'incorporated in GB and trading in GB'. Yet the loan was 'not suitable for a buy to let 'so it is termed 'personal'. It doesnt seem to be covered by any legislation but I think looking at the mortgage deed - it has an 'all monies charge' in it as they can recover absolutely everything etc.
                    b) I didnt pay any payments between May 2006 and December 2007. No recovery action was taken, never heard a word from them. They did though round it up into the loan. I was asked if I agreed with it. (lots of the review agreements are unsigned and I did ask for a breakdown of what was going on. At the same time they upped the interest rate, which for me is bizarre as it was unaffordable clearly. I was though being charged interest at 25 per day.
                    c) I ran up a 12k overdraft on my current account with them. This closed in 2006. I do not know how it got to 12k. I am sure there must have been more payments to this loan in there - how can they just keep taking money as an overdraft? The 12k is now secured as a charge on the house ... again I didnt know this had happened. They did go through a spell of sending post to my marital home as they thought I was some property magnate not a battered wife.
                    d) They insisted that I open another account with them (despite the 12k OD on the other one!) and told me they would repossess if I didnt follow their action plan. It transpires it is a business account. There are lots of letters that say 'we have approved your request for an overdraft' only I never made such a request. I have sold my entire life off to repay these charges and I am sure they should have taken recovery action not just let it keep going up so the loan was continually serviced.
                    e) the term about residential mortgage conversion is not in the agreement. However there are various letters from the various managers acknowledged in house by internal memo and to me that the plan was to pay off some and convert the rest to a capital repayment mortgage or 'standard mortgage product'. I feel it has always been implied if never expressed.
                    f) I cant afford it 1300 a month. I havent signed the latest diatribe contract that has come through as I dont agree with it. I am making minimum payments as I know I cant afford it and with a housing list with 6000 people on it we will need to rent somewhere and for that we need a deposit etc. So I pay in 350 a month. They have offered me this other loan in december 2010. All the way through this they have over ridden adverse credit reports from the 'system' who rejected me. I think they should give me back the charges, admit what they have done is wrong and give me a residential mortgage. If I am good for their 12 year loan, why cant I be good for the residential mortgage they promised.
                    g) The subject access request is missing lots of information particularly from the last 12months including review agreements, emails, letters etc.

                    Sorry, thats a bit of a rant! If someone could let me know how to upload I will let you see the agreement. The reviews are much the same just with changes in interest rate and review periods.

                    Once again, thank you for all of your help. Just having an outlet for this makes it feel all the less scary.

                    Last edited by mumisskint; 26th September 2011, 12:16:PM. Reason: add documents


                    • #11
                      Re: Please help - we are losing our home :-(


                      Thank you for sharing this with us and yes the info you provided will be very useful.

                      As said in my above post, you will get the right advice on your issues, and you will get through this.

                      So sorry to read what you have been through though, you will get stronger from all of this and you are dealing with it, that is good.

                      Our folks will be along in due course to advise further on this matter.

                      Meanwhile, I wish you all the best, and keeping everything crossed for you.


                      • #12
                        Re: Please help - we are losing our home :-(

                        Oh and yes the loan is secured on the property and I was up to date with the payments until March 2011. Then I got made redundant and have been paying in 300 ish a month, plus more when I find things I can sell.


                        • #13
                          Re: Please help - we are losing our home :-(

                          Hi Mumisskint,

                          really sorry to hear what you're going through

                          another ((((((((big hug))))))) here

                          There may be rights undder TOLATA re the property being the children's home - what ages are they ?

                          I will post later or early tomorrow but am at a job interview (long train journey too, Scotland to London).


                          • #14
                            Re: Please help - we are losing our home :-(

                            Hey there,
                            Thank you for another hug - they really are fortifying!

                            The little people are 8 and 2 - what tho does TOLATA stand for?

                            Ok ... have just googled it - I am the only person in the house paying the mortgage and the only person named on the deeds, this is the house I bought when I left my husband, not the marital home.

                            Am currently reading up on unfair contract terms act / unfair terms consumer contract regulations / some OFT stuff relating to that / the bank code / the lending code ... I want to be able to say you did this this this and this .... but its quite hard really isnt it?!

                            Last edited by mumisskint; 26th September 2011, 11:21:AM.


                            • #15
                              Re: Please help - we are losing our home :-(


                              I have noticed that your Refference numbers are still on docs in your photobucket

                              Is there any way you can remove them for your own security as we never know who is looking in or what their intentions are

                              mabe remove the docs amend them re submit

                              to upload direct onto your posts here with jpegs

                              When you reply
                              (I think this works with edit also to remove/resubmit attachments)

                              click go advanced
                              scrol down to advance options
                              click manage attachments
                              click browse
                              select the jpeg you want
                              click open
                              click upload
                              click close window
                              Best wishes


                              Advice & opinions of gorang are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability.
                              I am not a solicitor so please seek professional legal advice if you have any doubts as to what I suggest.



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